Gol's B737 down over Amazon

TG · Post by TG » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:05 am

Expat wrote:'Climb without informing ATC, after shuting off the transponder???" What kind of covert operation was that???
That stinks...

Don't always trust what you're reading over the internet.

New version: The Legacy was at FL370, still under Brasilia ATC, while the 738 had requested and been cleared by Manaus ATC to climb from FL350 to 390.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:17 am

Yes, but this doesn't account for TCAS not working.

boeingboy · Post by **boeingboy** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:40 am

How do you know it wasn't?

For the love of god - I hope this isn't a repeat of DHL in Germany.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:26 pm

The Legacy pilot stated:

"I don't know what I hit"

So one two things happened here:

Transponder was off or malfunctioning on one or both planes, causing TCAS to be ineffective.

The Gol B737 broke up in midflight and the Legacy flew through it's debris.

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:01 pm

I do not believe a word of that sh*t!
The Embraer pilot goes on silently and lands at another airport.
It is only missing a little piece of wing and tail.
The markings on the planes are not shown...
The plane is full of Americans...

He says he did not know what happenned...
What kind of flying is that...
There is a lot of unconnected dots here...

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:07 pm

av8rpei wrote:The Legacy pilot stated:

"I don't know what I hit"

So one two things happened here:

Transponder was off or malfunctioning on one or both planes, causing TCAS to be ineffective.

The Gol B737 broke up in midflight and the Legacy flew through it's debris.

A brand new 738 break up???
The wreckage seems to be in one piece...
Was it shot down???
By the Embraer???

Spooky...

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:04 pm

Expat wrote:I do not believe a word of that sh*t!
The Embraer pilot goes on silently and lands at another airport.
It is only missing a little piece of wing and tail.
The markings on the planes are not shown...
The plane is full of Americans...
He says he did not know what happenned...
What kind of flying is that...
There is a lot of unconnected dots here...

Reasearch a bit more, the Legacy was N600XL, on a demo flight prior to delivery to EXCELLAIRE.

Look at the pics of the wing again:

1.) there's no engines

2.) There's no fuselage ahead or behind the wing structure to be seen.

3.) The gear is deployed and in the case of the left main gear, unscathed after falling from 37000'

WJflyer · Post by **WJflyer** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:57 pm

We don't know how much unseen damage the Legacy took from that incident. There could be major structural damage internally that a picture from the outside could not detect.

TG · Post by TG » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:10 pm

Here is your connected dots Expat.

One of the aeroplanes was authorised by Brasilia's ATC to fly at 37000 feet, the other was authorised by Manaos ATC to climb from 35000 feet to 39000 feet and that the collision was caused by a lack of communication between the two (ATC)

Well, if this one is true.....

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:32 am

TG wrote:Here is your connected dots Expat.

One of the aeroplanes was authorised by Brasilia's ATC to fly at 37000 feet, the other was authorised by Manaos ATC to climb from 35000 feet to 39000 feet and that the collision was caused by a lack of communication between the two (ATC)
Well, if this one is true.....

If you are so good, can you find the list of pax for both flights?
A few more dots will probably appear...

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:14 am

Expat wrote:If you are so good, can you find the list of pax for both flights?
A few more dots will probably appear...

For the 737, you may want to look at this list, thier manifest.

http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/0,, ... 98,00.html

Everywhere I look, the full list for the legacy has 'names being withheld' so far, but, check out this link, it has 7 of the names in the article. Not often you get to read the writings of an 'on board' eye witness to a mid-air collision, but, there was a new york times reporter on the legacy.

http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/b ... y%2c%20Joe

So, there ya have it, all the names. I know nothing about any of them, so, have no way of seeing if that makes any more dots connect. Maybe you can go over them all, and fill us in on any connections....

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:11 am

WJflyer wrote:We don't know how much unseen damage the Legacy took from that incident. There could be major structural damage internally that a picture from the outside could not detect.

On the other site where I post I made the exact same comment, there is a report from one of the pax (A Journalist) of the Embraer, speaking of how hard the pilots struggled to get the plane on the ground.

alpha1 · Post by **alpha1** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:20 am

check out the story in the front page of the new york times...

http://www.nytimes.com

from a passenger on-board the biz jet

alpha1 · Post by **alpha1** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:21 am

sorry, already posted

my bad

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:17 pm

As the story unfolds, we will find out more. This is definitely not kosher...

Top News

Pilots' Passports Seized In Wake Of Suspected Brazilian Midair
Thu, 05 Oct '06

Airport Authority Chief Says Legacy's Transponder Was Inactive
Did the American pilots of an Embraer Legacy 600 suspected of clipping a Gol Airlines 737 last week disobey an ATC directive? That's a question for investigators of the fatal crash that killed all 155 persons onboard the airliner... and while they look into the accident, a Brazilian judge has ordered the pilots' passports seized.

Brazil's O Globo claims pilot Joseph Lepore and co-pilot Jan Paladino remained at 37,000 feet after a controller told them to descend to FL360. The Gol 737 was also cruising at 37,000 feet when, authorities suspect, the two aircraft collided... and the 737 plunged into the Amazon jungle. So far, rescue personnel scouring the jungle around the crash site have found no survivors.

As Aero-News reported, the Legacy made a safe emergency landing at a Brazilian military base following the suspected collision. Both pilots report they never saw what hit their aircraft -- only a shadow just as something collided with the jet's left wing.

ICAO operating rules allow for altitude separation of aircraft flying in opposite directions by setting default altitudes. Westbound aircraft fly at even-numbers, while eastbound planes use odd-numbers... which should provide at least 1000 ft of separation. Controllers may direct any altitude... but generally follow default altitude guidelines.

Under those rules, the Embraer should not have been at 37,000 feet because it was flying northwest toward the US.

"Flights from here (Brasilia) to Manaus should be at even-numbered altitudes, like 36 or 38 thousand feet," Defence Minister Waldir Pires said in a telephone interview with Reuters. "And those from Manaus fly at odd-numbered altitudes."

Authorities are also looking at reports the Legacy's transponder was turned off at the time of the accident -- with the head of Brazil's airports authority, Jose Carlos Pereira, implying the pilots may have done so deliberately.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:12 am

One thing is for sure, if it turns out to be true, that they deliberatly turned off the transponder for their own gains...

Well IMO they should then be drawn and quarterd for the manslaughter of 155 people....

For the sake a pilots everywhere I hope it is not true.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:28 am

It is not a matter of turning off "the" transponder, it is a matter of turning of both transponders. I have never seen an MEL for both Transponders so unless there was a very nasty failure at the worst time a few miles before collision, these gentlemen just murdered 155 people. Of course it could turn out that they were cycling them off and on to clear a fault but doing both at once is dumb.

It is not possible for two modern aircraft functioning properly to collide. Yes av8rpei for the sake of pilots hopefully something more shows up, but it looks like avionic's engineers have more automation to design.

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:28 pm

any updates on what has been the cause yet on this tragic and sensless accident?

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:34 am

Mig29 wrote:any updates on what has been the cause yet on this tragic and sensless accident?

Not much:

Same as been mentioned with the added questions as to why the two air traffic control centres involved didn't move the 737 out of the Legacys altitude.

Oh that and the moment the incident happened, amazingly the Legacy could talk to ATC again, and their transponder turned on.

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:35 am

Their TCAS must have also been turned off. That is an awfull lot of gear turned off for a climb...
Covert flight for sure...

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:48 am

gli77 wrote:It is not a matter of turning off "the" transponder, it is a matter of turning of both transponders. I have never seen an MEL for both Transponders so unless there was a very nasty failure at the worst time a few miles before collision, these gentlemen just murdered 155 people. Of course it could turn out that they were cycling them off and on to clear a fault but doing both at once is dumb.

It is not possible for two modern aircraft functioning properly to collide. Yes av8rpei for the sake of pilots hopefully something more shows up, but it looks like avionic's engineers have more automation to design.

I thought the backup transponder must be selected "On" I don't think it is always on in the background?

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:03 am

You could be right I have never worked on a Legacy. But every other modern aircraft I have worked on the second transponder automatically comes on when the first fails. I find it hard to believe this would not be the case on the Legacy.

Of course even with both transponders off, the Legacy TCAS would still be monitoring the airspace. It would make no sense for them to turn off their TCAS as well with the Mode S's already off.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:04 am

gli77 wrote:modern aircraft I have worked on the second transponder automatically comes on when the first fails.

What happens if it is manually shut off?

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:54 am

Then go back to my first post and yours. My first point was that the crew had to knowingly disable both transponders. It will be a bad day for pilots and more work for avionics engineers. One more thing that will be fully automated and one step closer to reducing crew requirements.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:13 am

Im not getting you here.

So when you Squawk an ATC code, you're dialing into both transponders? I'm missing something here.