LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by fish4life »

AuxBatOn wrote:At aerodromes where there is no Advisory, you should always strive for a low approach (or circling if you can't do a departure procedure) to look at the runway conditions, ESPECIALLY during the winter, where RSC may not always be on the NOTAMS due to the lack of reports. It would make a huge impact on my decision to land or proceed to the alternate/divert.
What about night time?
This procedure seems like a good idea in theory but being able to tell the difference between 1/2 inch of snow and 6 inches at most of these airports is next to impossible. A better solution would be responsible airport operators that will update conditions regularly.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by BadgerGirl »

How regularly would be reasonable?
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by BadgerGirl »

Another photo.

Image
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Beefitarian »

BadgerGirl wrote:How regularly would be reasonable?
Any time there's a snow fall, followed by a report that the runway is cleared.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Beefitarian »

Here's a link to the other thread discussing the same sort of thing.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=69804

Thank God there was no one hurt in that one either but this is no way to treat public planes and pilots. I don't mind paying taxes to perform medivac flights but if airport operators are going to let this happen maybe they should be on a list of places that medivacs don't service.
Maybe in this case it's Winnepeg's fault for not being able to access the NOTAM (NOtice To Air Men) for Maple Creek on file at Edmonton.

I'm against litigation but think the airport operator's insurance should be liable for these incidents not the aircraft's.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by oldtimer »

According to the newspaper, the airplane landed around noon. A reply in the paper indicated there was "a skiff" of snow that morning. Is the town or the MD responsible for airport maintenance and issuing Notams?
All my experience has been from 10 to 15 years ago but back then, there were no county/town/MD organizations responsible for airport maintenance that had any sort of a broom. Everyone used either a grader or front end loader to clear snow. Now, every small airport had a skiff of snow except for some patches that were windblown clear. Combine that with a skiff of snow, do you think the runway would be readily discernible? I think not.
Now comes the question. Did the airplane run off the side, off the end or did it land beside the runway because the pilot could not readily discern what was runway and what was patches of grass sticking out along the side. That put the pilot in a tough position. I have been there and bought the T shirt. This happens even when the weather is above limits. It is like a glassey water landing on floats. I think they call it flat light. Ask CAt Driver what that is like. Ask any bush pilot what that is like.
Is this somewhat like another Walkerton? Everyone I know will stand on their soap box, hand over heart, and swear to all that safety comes first. Safety is number one. I say that is bull shit. MONEY comes first. If there was a skiff of snow and the persons responsible had a broom, this may not have happened. I think the pilot got suckered in.
The only way this is ever going to change is if a politician is killed. Then, and only then, will changes be made. Look what happened in Alberta when Grant Knotley was killed near High Prairie.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by BadgerGirl »

The town of Maple Creek operates the airport and reported runway conditions that morning. They say they reported to Winnipeg, but somehow, Edmonton had the info and the flight was being controlled from Winnipeg.
At any rate, the town reports every day from what I understand.

There was one inch of snow cover on the runway in the centre, with up to three inches towards the side.

The pilot was unable to find the centre of the runway and as he landed, his left landing gear hit the snowbank on the south side of the runway.

The pilot did check for notifications before he left, but because of this communication mix up in the gray zone, he did not receive them.

That is all I have found out thus far. No word on extent of damages yet. Plane is still at Maple Creek and depending on what the adjuster says, it may be repaired on site, but no one is certain yet.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by snoopy »

Hi Badgergirl,

"Well, the town office calls in the condition of the runway to Nav Canada daily and sometimes more often if weather requires more frequent updates. Is that what you mean?"

I'm pretty sure that isn't quite what . is getting at, but you can bet he'll be back on here soon to clarify... :wink:

There are lots of airports across the country that aren't attended by humans, which normally would necessitate the pilot(s) to exercise due diligence before counting on being able to land successfully there. Also, an unattended airport would have other implications for approach and landing when instrument flight is a consideration. However since it seems more likely a white-out may have been the more likely cause, we'll forget about that part for the moment.

Snow on the runway can affect braking capabilities of the aircraft - most aircraft have performance charts where the pilot can look up expected landing and take-off performance for a clean runway. Often there will be a method to calculate performance degradation due to contaminated runways and headwind/tailwind component. (headwind good for stopping - tailwind bad). If there is no specific chart for contaminated runways, there will be a warning that the performance data for landing is predicated on a clean, dry runway, and the pilot will have to factor in a "best guess" based on experience and (hopefully) good judgment. That takes care of insufficient runway length. There's also the risk for slipping and sliding sideways in a crosswind and/or icy conditions.

Snow on the runway, even just enough to cover the surface and cause it to blend in with the surrounding terrain can be extremely dangerous and cause a loss of depth perception due to lack of visual reference. I haven't been into Maple Creek myself, however I see from the Canada Flight Supplement (our airport/runway bible) that runway 06-24 has lighting. If the lighting is on, or at least the light standards are poking above the snow, then the pilot has a fighting chance for visual reference. However, if you consider the aircraft is closing with the ground at a reference speed (sort of a fence at the end of the runway crossing speed) of say 103 Kts (flap) - 132 Kts (no flap) [190-244 kms], and combine this with a grey overcast day and a short runway.... well basically it means the pilot has to be as slow as possible, with very little if any landing reference, and somehow make ground contact and stop before the runway runs out. Not a great situation.

On a float plane over glassy water, or a ski plane over snow, or even a land plane over a long runway, a pilot can use some kind of side reference and a slow rate of descent to fly the aircraft to the surface. On a short runway in the flat lands in a fast airplane, this technique won't work very well.

The best defense a community airport can offer the pilot is to clear the runway after a snow - particularly if it is known a flight is inbound. And to keep Flight Service informed via regular reporting - particularly as soon as possible after a fresh snow, and again after snow removal. Pilots do generally try to make safe decisions, and exercise good judgement however there can be extra pressure if there is a perceived urgency to the flight (ie medevac to save a life). Not an excuse, but it exists nonetheless.

Anyway, I don't proclaim to have any clue what happened in this situation, and I make no judgment on the pilot - I have no information on which to even base an opinion. But hopefully this information will help you understand some of the hazards we face on the job.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by oldtimer »

I spent a couple of years flying back and forth between Calgary and Regina or Saskatoon. We were always handed off from either Edmonton to Winnipeg Center to Winnipeg to Edmonton Center, depending on direction, just somewhere around north of Maple Creek or Swift Current. All ATC are responsible for is to coordinate IFR traffic. They will pass on any significant Notams if requested but their main concern is Air Traffic CONTROL.
BadgerGirl, you sound like a reporter and I have to say if you were the one who wrote the article in the paper, you were quite accurate and did a good job.
IMHO the pilot was suckered in by flat light (Snowing and/or overcast on fresh snow with no shadows or features visible) where the runway was not clearly visible. If you cannot find the center line and drop your main gear off into the snow, all you can do is "expletive deleted". All because the town does not have a large powered broom, usually pulled by a plow truck. Do I hear MONEY??
Transport Canada has a statement on all Instrument Approaches that the pilot must discern that the runway is unobstructed before landing. Now, come up on the airport at 300 meters, doing 275 - 300 kph and tell me if the runway is snow covered. All you can tell is if there is any snow removal equipment on the runway or if there are any X's indicating the runway is closed. Now if they did a pass or two down the runway with a broom, you have the black runway for reference. Again--MONEY.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by BadgerGirl »

So, the brush and lamp posts at the side of the runway are not very helpful when landing? Is that because of the speed they are landing with?

And yes, I did write the article, I am a reporter. The longer article comes out tomorrow, what is online was just the brief details.

I was there on-scene first as a firefighter, then a reporter. Gotta love small towns. ;)
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Beefitarian »

The lamp posts should be well away from the runway. They break wings.

The brush won't help if it's buried in snow.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Cat Driver »

So, the brush and lamp posts at the side of the runway are not very helpful when landing?
The brush and lamp posts ( runway lights. ) at the side of the runway are what define the sides of the runway and not only are they helpful they " are " the visual clues of where the runway sides are.
Is that because of the speed they are landing with?
No, regardless of speed you can and must be able to identify the landing area ( runway ) or you do not continue the approach and landing.
And yes, I did write the article, I am a reporter. The longer article comes out tomorrow, what is online was just the brief details.

With all due respect may I suggest you do your best to get the subject correct before you decide to print the article....sort of like pilots should be sure of what they are doing before they do it. ( I am not making any judgment on what this crew did as I do not have enough facts to make such a judgment. )

Flat light on snow is like glassy water, accurate height judgment becomes either impossible or very difficult.

We flew thousands of hours in the DC3's in the far north and the Arctic with little or no information from anyone on the ground and always managed to land where we should have safely.

X/winds on slippery runways are not all that difficult as long as the airplane is kept going in a straight line down the runway...I once landed a DC3 with a fifty knot ninety degree X/wind in blowing snow by keeping the thing pointed into wind and it just slid sideways down the runway until it stopped..


Before anyone asks me why I decided to do that it is quite simple...there was no where else to land and we had no choice...... even though we were on wheel skis we were screwed as it was dark and the runway at Resolute Bay was the only place we had to land due to a very quick change in the weather.

sometimes one just has no choice.
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by BadgerGirl »

I was asking about the bush and lights marking the runway because the safety board said the pilot was unable to find the centre of the runway.

If a reporter had to learn every aspect of everything before writing about it, there would be no news at all.
The story is based on information provided by the town, the safety board, the air ambulance folks and any other relevant agency involved.
The only reason I have inquired of you is because of the snow issue.
I would suggest the article will be accurate, without being technical. :)

Thank for everyone's help. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything massive and your insights have helped.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Cat Driver »

I was asking about the bush and lights marking the runway because the safety board said the pilot was unable to find the centre of the runway.
The crew told the safety board they could not find the center of the runway?????
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Badger girl,

I really liked on your website where the politician "Barry" asked you to remove the negative comments about him from the comments section, your response was perfect!

Sorry to get off topic but this was a very interesting thread...., would love to hear more about that DC3 at Resolute.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Cat Driver »

Sorry to get off topic but this was a very interesting thread...., would love to hear more about that DC3 at Resolute.
We had been hauling fuel in perfect weather on wheel skis to a remote site and on our last trip the wind just started blowing without any warning and created a blowing snow at the surface situation that reduced the surface visibility to zero...but we had the runway lights in sight right down to about fifty feet...enough to keep it lined up down the center and I lucked out in the flare and did a perfect wheel landing pointed into wind about thirty degrees off the runway heading...I' m real lucky sometimes.... :mrgreen:

So in that situation demonstrated X/wind limit for the DC3 was fifty knots at ninety degrees. :smt040
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by BadgerGirl »

Cat Driver wrote:
I was asking about the bush and lights marking the runway because the safety board said the pilot was unable to find the centre of the runway.
The crew told the safety board they could not find the center of the runway?????
Exact quote from Peter Hildebrand, regional manager for the Transportation Safety Board: "It was hard to see where the middle of the runway was."

He did not say if the pilot told him that or if the evidence at the scene indicated such a scenario.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Cat Driver »

Exact quote from Peter Hildebrand, regional manager for the Transportation Safety Board: "It was hard to see where the middle of the runway was."

He did not say if the pilot told him that or if the evidence at the scene indicated such a scenario.
O.K. I was just wondering exactly what was said.

You seem to be doing a very commendable job on this and I respect you for it.

. E.

P.S. ....

I am retired now and any time you need some advice about the business of flying safely feel free to PM me......before I get senile....... :mrgreen:
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by BadgerGirl »

I'll get the whole story out as soon as I can, I have competition believe it or not, so I want to wait until the print edition is on the stands before I post online.
I think I have done a reasonable job with it – it is my first plane crash after all – and have tried to learn as much as I could in order to treat all parties fairly. :)
Bottom line, I'm happy no one was hurt, including the patient the plane was coming for.

In a small town, I have found the fiction is always worse than fact and the story being told is that the town was negligent in snow removal. Of course, there is no black or white and I am just trying to show all the influential factors in the incident so that people have access to the best information, but info which is in context and easily digested regardless of background.

What a mouthful. If you ever have to land here, I'll hold onto a few print copies for you, lol.

Thanks everyone again, you have a very kind forum. Most forums this large resist and grandstand for new members. You guys have not. :)
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Cat Driver »

Thanks everyone again, you have a very kind forum. Most forums this large resist and grandstand for new members. You guys have not. :)
It was our pleasure helping you.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by cdnpilot77 »

BadgerGirl wrote: Thanks everyone again, you have a very kind forum. Most forums this large resist and grandstand for new members. You guys have not. :)
Read some of the other threads and see if you will still feel the same way...you should do a story on the flypast60 issue at Air Canada and then ask for opinions on here, that would ruin your perception of us very quickly. :)

All joking aside, I am very happy to see a reporter doing their due diligence. It is disgusting that so often we read about accidents and incidents where the information being passed as factual is so erroneous that the story loses its entire meaning and direction especially when fatalities are involved.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Beefitarian »

BadgerGirl wrote:In a small town, I have found the fiction is always worse than fact and the story being told is that the town was negligent in snow removal.
That could only be true if they were operating an uncontroled airport used by medivac planes that did not have a NOTAM declare "RWY closed due to snow" when snow that made it impossible to see the runway or might otherwise cause an accident was not removed or something.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by KISS_MY_TCAS »

From a group that doesn't want to speculate or play armchair quarterback, the jury seems to be already out on runway conditions.

From an operator with a historically low incident rate that commonly flies into the same strips every week, I find a single point of cause unreasonable. Everyone is trained in annual CRM about event chains, I seriously doubt runway conditions were the only factor in the incident. But since everyone else is speculating, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Any King Air guys ever freeze a brake? It was snowing that day, not impossible he landed with one or two locked. How about an asymmetry in reverse where one engine doesn't build N1 in a "holy s***" situation, or even discing the props and having one react noticeably faster than the other with the associated yaw? This condition would be very magnified by a slippery runway. The engines and props are obviously going to be removed and sent to overhaul, so as a single pilot machine only one person holds the key to the events. Did the investigators look at the maintenance logs to see if anything was changed recently? It was stated that the pilot could not find centerline, but taken out of context this could mean anything, like perhaps after an unexpected yaw on landing and trying to visually re-locate center after getting thown off it while snow was being tossed everywhere by the aircraft. If, through the reporter posting here you expect the public to believe landing in 1-3 inches of snow is this risky, I'll take the bus.
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by Cat Driver »

KISS_MY_TCAS there could be many reasons for that accident no doubt about it and it can happen to anyone here at the right place and the wrong set of circumstances.

In the final analysis there may be a cause determined but by the time the findings are released few will recall this event.

Remember the flurry of speculation here when that Dash 8 went snow plowing, was a cause ever determined?
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Re: LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

Post by lost in the north »

Do they have a sms
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