Westjet goes ALPA

[JBI]

Hi Schooner69A,

Hope this message finds you well. In a union environment, it really comes down to what mandate the majority of the workers gives the union.

For example, if a majority of the WestJet pilots indicated to the union that they want hats to be something negotiated for in a new CBA, that's something the union would have to use their good faith efforts to negotiate for. It could be that the company says "No, we don't want to give you hats" Or "if we give you hats, you need to work 27 days a month" - it then is up to the negotiating committee to determine what can be negotiated and whether the majority of pilots would be willing to work 27 days a month in order to get the benefit of wearing hats, or if that's something that wouldn't be feasible.

So when it comes to the seniority list as well as the general wages and working conditions, it does come down to what the majority of the jet pilots want to prioritize, and what can then be negotiated with the company.

There are pros and cons about having a certified bargaining unit representing a specific group of employees. I'm not trying to advocate for one side or the other, but rather try and straighten out some of the claims that have been made after the fact. Because the WestJet/Encore one list and DOH is pretty different than any other airline in North America, there are certainly some unknowns. But for pilots at Encore, I don't think it's time to panic or send out applications to other regionals.

[NewCommercialPilot]

So when it comes to the seniority list...it does come down to what the majority of the jet pilots want to prioritize, and what can then be negotiated with the company.

The above statement is subject to some restrictions/clarifications:

i) The ALPA Constitution and Bylaws represents a de facto contract between the members and ALPA. Violation of any term of the Constitution opens up the possibility of a Breach of a Contract action in civil court by a member against the union, as well as expulsion of any member violating said term.

ii) The ALPA Constitution states that the ALPA President swears an oath that says, among other things, he will:

"...comply with and advance the policies of the Association"

iii) The ALPA Constitution states that the President

"...is charged with carrying out the policies of... the Executive Board."

iv) The ALPA Constitution states that

"The decisions of the Master Executive Council shall be considered as the decisions of the members of the airline and shall be acted upon accordingly. However, nothing in this Section shall authorize any Master Executive Council to initiate any action that is inconsistent with this Constitution and By-Laws or with the best interests of the Association or the general membership."

v) The ALPA Constitution states that the MEC Chairman is the

"Association representative on his airline for the purpose of furthering and implementing
the objectives and policies of the...Executive Board."

vi) In 1956, the ALPA Executive Board established the following policy that has been reaffirmed several times and still stands:

"ALPA is instructed to use every means in its command in standardizing for prospective application two Sections of all agreements.

"Specifically, the part of the Seniority General Section which establishes...position on the seniority list, shall be standardized so that in the event of mergers, acquisitions, sales, etc, a common foundation will exist, thereby eliminating future controversy on this subject."

"Seniority shall be based on length of service with the Company."

"Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot employed by the company begins operational training..."




So, JBI, if you follow the chain above, you will likely come to the conclusion that, regardless of what the majority of WJ pilots want, the President and the MEC Chairman MUST use "every means in its command" to achieve seniority based on DOH, or else an OTS pilot adversely affected by a non-DOH seniority list will sue for Breach of Contract.

Shall we now debate what "every means in its command" means?

There is no avoiding the collision course we are now on.

Cheers

John

[mbav8r]

"Collision course" a bit doomsday overdramatic, what's the worse case?
No more DOH for Encore, well Encore should have never been allowed as a separate company in the first place and the flow was a bandaid solution to a problem that didn't need to exist. If it's removed, WJ will need to figure out something to recruit new pilots to Encore.
They created the problem why is it the Pilots need to fix it, they shouldn't except the fact that the stage was set for the whipsaw I believe you are about to experience. Predicted back when Encore was first created.
In my opinion, if Encore pilots could no longer flow with a DOH number then the solution, WJ merges the two and voila, ALPAs 60 policy will kick in and everybody is happy, well not everybody. WJ management is no doubt salivating at the thought they will be able to approach Encore pilots with a carrot, flow to the ULCC or become the ULCC, let's face it, they already are! They matched the old US regional pay and drove everyone else down, so really not a big stretch.
I see two scenarios, obviously the first, Encore becomes the new ULCC with 10 737s, most likely or two a merger and the ULCC is on its own, if not blocked some how.

[True North]

They created the problem why is it the Pilots need to fix it, they shouldn't except the fact that the stage was set for the whipsaw I believe you are about to experience. Predicted back when Encore was first created.

Interesting though how this was not an issue until ALPA showed up.

[mbav8r]

Interesting that you think it wasn't going to become a problem, with or without ALPA, you're not giving Saretsky enough credit. He's playing chess and everyone still thinks it's checkers
Ask yourself, why hasn't he been fired yet, everything he has done that has chipped away at the former culture, yet he's still there. The job he was brought in for is not done yet, it's mostly done, a few moves away.

[Rowdy]

Interesting though how this was not an issue until ALPA showed up.

So you think that someone hired directly onto the jet at WJ, wouldn't take it to the courts when someone hired at a separate company(Encore) slid in front of them? Holding them back longer from an $upgrade$ etc ? That would be some pretty AMAZING company culture...

As for NCP, dude, you're grasping at the wrong straws here... have a good re-read of mbav8r's post. Saretsky is playing chess, and y'all out there tossing bean bags around. Remember who his brother is.. have a good look at his history. It may become a bit more apparent.

[Rowdy]

"Specifically, the part of the Seniority General Section which establishes...position on the seniority list, shall be standardized so that in the event of mergers, acquisitions, sales, etc, a common foundation will exist, thereby eliminating future controversy on this subject."

This isn't a merger. This isn't an acquisition. But you can keep barking up that tree at a squirrel that isn't there..

[Schooner69A]

Rowdy:

Would not it be construed as coming under "etc"...?

[Schooner69A]

JBI:

Merci...

J

[Rowdy]

Rowdy:

Would not it be construed as coming under "etc"...?

While it 'could' be.. I find it unlikely that the ALPA president would step in and negate the pilot groups wishes in an instance like this. That portion is there to protect those in a Merger or acquisition of competing airlines, or those with completely different ownership and pilot groups (read: representation). If Encore now moves towards ALPA, it would most likely simplify this perceived situation. In my humble opinion, they are the ones who need representation the most. But thats another can of worms

As many of us who are with ALPA and have a strong understanding of the unions constitution and our respective collective agreements continue to point out, it will simply reside with the WJ pilots and what they wish to achieve.

[JBI]

NewCommericalPilot, Rotten Apple #1 et al,

To fully refute your claims would take me a significant amount of time and writing and considering I no longer get paid to draft long legal opinions, I won't be embarking on such a task. Especially considering that since the jet pilots voted in favour of ALPA, it really is a moot argument at this point.

I will say that I disagree with your conclusion. You make some pretty big logical leaps and provide improper importance on some items that support your position but brush away significant legal principles that are contrary to your position.

For example, the ALPA constitution only says that as an objective, ALPA seeks to (6) To establish fair rates of compensation, maximum hours of employment, and uniform principles of seniority for members of the Association, and to seek the adoption and perpetuation thereof. That's pretty vague. Even the definition of standardize seniority principles in an administrative manual is relatively vague.

The CIRB and Canadian courts recognize that unions have a challenging task in following the wishes of the majority while still providing proper representation of its members. If there are an claims of breach of contract or improper action, the courts will look at whether the actions of the union were reasonable. As far as I know, no airline in North America has ever entered a union with the same corporate structure as WestJet, an Alberta Partnership, and it's subsidiary companies with a single pilot list for both its mainline and regional operations. The structure is significantly different than AC and the Express carriers. So, while some general legal principles are obviously relevant, the factual pattern is significantly different.

Nothing is guaranteed. It will be a very interesting few weeks, months and years. Regardless of what happens with employee relations, WestJet will be a very different company when this is all done with 787s, a unionized pilot group or two and maybe even a ULCC. Negotiations will occur between ALPA and the company and that will be the primary factor of determining what type of flow / DOH continues.

Cheers

[NewCommercialPilot]

Thanks for the reply JBI.

You join a lengthy list of people who disagree with my arguments but can't exactly say why. (I wonder if those others follow the CARs or their company's Operations Manual or the Aircraft Manual...maybe those are all optional too).



Take care

[Rotten Apple #1]

Rowdy, perhaps you missed what the Executive Board said. It issued the policy on constructing seniority lists (non-merger, non-acquisition, non-sale) in order to avoid controversy in the future in the event of merger, acquisition, sale etc.

What level of post-secondary education do you have?

John Swallow
(The Younger)

[JBI]

Thanks for the reply JBI.

You join a lengthy list of people who disagree with my arguments but can't exactly say why. (I wonder if those others follow the CARs or their company's Operations Manual or the Aircraft Manual...maybe those are all optional too).

Take care

I have said why. I also do not appreciate the suggestion that I would not follow the CARs, the COM or AOM simply because there is an obvious difference between the legal weight a Constitution has as compared to a policy manual. I have kept this respectful.

When I dealt with self represented litigants in litigation who would throw all the arguments and the kitchen sink at an issue without any legal training, it would often be impossible to settle, and it would then be up to a judge to simply rule against them. Often it was a waste of time and legal resources, but the self represented litigant would not listen to anyone else. Not going to lie I took a small pleasure in watching them then argue with the judge after the ruling who would simply tell them to sit down.

In this situation, it is not necessary for me to take this debate any further. Not because I concede defeat, but because the time and energy it would take to rebut all your assertions is not worth the time and effort considering the jet pilots have voted to certify. Again, I appreciate your concern and opinions, however, it is time to move on.

[True North]

Interesting that you think it wasn't going to become a problem, with or without ALPA, you're not giving Saretsky enough credit. He's playing chess and everyone still thinks it's checkers
Ask yourself, why hasn't he been fired yet, everything he has done that has chipped away at the former culture, yet he's still there. The job he was brought in for is not done yet, it's mostly done, a few moves away.

The WestJet pilots came up with a unique way to prevent whipsaw with the one list and giving their Encore brethren a spot on the WJ list. Everyone is on the same page so to speak with a clear career progression path. No whipsaw. That is changed now. Saretsky didn't vote in ALPA the pilots did. You can blame him for everything if you want but you just continue to delude yourself. Flying for WestJet is about as good as it gets. It's not perfect, no job is but it's definitely a place to make a career. I'm quite familiar with the pay and working conditions there and I don't understand the complaints. There have been no clawbacks by the company, no agreement violations and yet the pilots aren't satisfied. I had the greatest respect for the pilots at WestJet and what they have accomplished, not so much now. I, and others continually ask why they feel there is a need for a union and have yet to get one legitimate answer. Not one. Plenty of bullshit but not one actual, definable, verifiable reason. WestJet pilots used to be a motivated bunch and understood that the success of the company meant they would succeed, and they have. It was admirable. Now, the image they present here and on other public sites is that of a bunch of lazy, whining, entitled brats who want everything for nothing. It's pretty sad but it's the end of an era and they only have themselves to blame, although they will never admit it. You guys go ahead and wallow in the swamp. I'm out.

[IKEA_Monkey]

The WestJet pilots came up with a unique way to prevent whipsaw with the one list and giving their Encore brethren a spot on the WJ list. Everyone is on the same page so to speak with a clear career progression path. No whipsaw. That is changed now. Saretsky didn't vote in ALPA the pilots did. You can blame him for everything if you want but you just continue to delude yourself. Flying for WestJet is about as good as it gets. It's not perfect, no job is but it's definitely a place to make a career. I'm quite familiar with the pay and working conditions there and I don't understand the complaints. There have been no clawbacks by the company, no agreement violations and yet the pilots aren't satisfied. I had the greatest respect for the pilots at WestJet and what they have accomplished, not so much now. I, and others continually ask why they feel there is a need for a union and have yet to get one legitimate answer. Not one. Plenty of bullshit but not one actual, definable, verifiable reason. WestJet pilots used to be a motivated bunch and understood that the success of the company meant they would succeed, and they have. It was admirable. Now, the image they present here and on other public sites is that of a bunch of lazy, whining, entitled brats who want everything for nothing. It's pretty sad but it's the end of an era and they only have themselves to blame, although they will never admit it. You guys go ahead and wallow in the swamp. I'm out.

At risk of wasting my time I dare say you've had plenty of opportunities to find "legitimate answers". But you don't strike me as the listening type. In fact, your ignorant and condescending post is a perfect example of why a full 2/3 of your peers asked for change.

[I WAS Birddog]

Those ALPA lanyards are sexy as phuque....do they make them for men?

*calm down ppl...'dems jokes.

[atphat]

The WestJet pilots came up with a unique way to prevent whipsaw with the one list and giving their Encore brethren a spot on the WJ list. Everyone is on the same page so to speak with a clear career progression path. No whipsaw. That is changed now. Saretsky didn't vote in ALPA the pilots did. You can blame him for everything if you want but you just continue to delude yourself. Flying for WestJet is about as good as it gets. It's not perfect, no job is but it's definitely a place to make a career. I'm quite familiar with the pay and working conditions there and I don't understand the complaints. There have been no clawbacks by the company, no agreement violations and yet the pilots aren't satisfied. I had the greatest respect for the pilots at WestJet and what they have accomplished, not so much now. I, and others continually ask why they feel there is a need for a union and have yet to get one legitimate answer. Not one. Plenty of bullshit but not one actual, definable, verifiable reason. WestJet pilots used to be a motivated bunch and understood that the success of the company meant they would succeed, and they have. It was admirable. Now, the image they present here and on other public sites is that of a bunch of lazy, whining, entitled brats who want everything for nothing. It's pretty sad but it's the end of an era and they only have themselves to blame, although they will never admit it. You guys go ahead and wallow in the swamp. I'm out.

At risk of wasting my time I dare say you've had plenty of opportunities to find "legitimate answers". But you don't strike me as the listening type. In fact, your ignorant and condescending post is a perfect example of why a full 2/3 of your peers asked for change.

They aren't his peers. FWIW

[mbav8r]

TrueNorth, I know you said you're out but just one question, I believe I know your answer.
You think when Saretsky set up Encore as a completely separate company, his plan wasn't to have two divided groups of pilots to pit against each other?
The one list was a bandaid but the cure was to demand that Encore be under the same roof or no dice. Remember, the Pilots voted for it and according to Saretsky, he would've abided by their vote, for whatever that's worth.
Also ,if you think that the changes and erosion that has taken place since his arrival hasn't been adversarial, you're not listening and clearly haven't talked to any WJ pilots, I have and saw this coming a long time ago.

[SRV]

Awesome, ticket prices just doubled, as usual joe public gets to fund a windfall for the few...

Yeah god forbid we have to pay $109 now for a 3 hour flight. Get over your entitlement dude

Right 109, what's that? the amount I have to pay the captain to shine his/her boots?

[sanjet]

Right 109, what's that? the amount I have to pay the captain to shine his/her boots?

How about 70$ of that fare goes to pay taxes....