Flair buys Newleaf

[Air.Field]

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business/ne ... -1.4149722

[AllClutch]

I bet newleaf owed flair a lot of cash.
I wonder if you will see Jim Scott come in to steer the ship?

[fish4life]

I've got a feeling "purchasing" the asssests meant they owed us a bunch of money so we confiscated the business.

[sanjet]

All that talk about foreign investors wanting in last year and would revolutionize air travel in Canada....

[crazyaviator]

Air Canada and Westjet need to put these fly-by-nighters out of business before they totally piss off the travelling public or crash one of their A/C into the side of a mountain! When Westjet started, they at least stuck to their guns and delivered a good product!!

[GRK2]

Put them out of business? Glad to see that fair competition lives in your world. Fly into a mountain? Seriously... What an arrogant and ignorant comment! Just who do you think you are? The numbers don't lie. Over a quarter of a million passengers and over 2000 flights so far. Don't see any incidents or accident do you? I know many of the pilots and crews at Flair and to wish these great and highly skilled people failure is wrong in so many ways. This is part of the ever growing "screw you, I deserve better than you" sub culture I see in Canada. As long as you're OK then the rest of us who work in the business can go fornicate. Now there's a great attitude and way of passing it forward for you. I've been in the business of aviation longer than I want to think and it never changes for the better, it only gets worse. How about wishing someone fair skies and good luck for a change? The more people that get to work and (for most) realise a dream, the better off this industry will be. It's a little poisonous at times and if I read you correctly you're not contributing much to growing aviation and cleaning it up. The guy on the WS forum who hates ALPA and anyone in it is another great contributor to the betterment. Try to be a bigger person, try to make this a better business by supporting it and others who make a living in it. Think what might happen if you failed, lost a medical or were laid off because your company shut down. Or simply just grow the hell up. Your choice. Personally I wish them all the fortune they deserve and a safe and fair working environment.

[Old fella]

Guess the final arbiter will folks like us- the travelling public. If the service provided meets our needs and more to the point, dependable well then survival is a good bet. If not, then we will go elsewhere and the business plan for the new entry will be in jeopardy.

[crazyaviator]

Two discounted carriers, SkyGreece and CanJet, ceased operations within days of each other last summer, joining other failed ventures such as JetsGo, Zoom Airways, Roots Air and VistaJet.

My concern is with the travelling public! There needs to be safeguards, regardless of pricing, that these start-ups meet their obligations to deliver a product and on time! Westjet was a serious
start-up competitor and was not even in the same league as new leaf and KFC

I worked on contract for royal airlines for 3 months before they went bust,,,what a scary place in maintenance that was,,,Left at the end of the term even though they asked me to stay. A fella got sucked into a B737 engine at that time ( vanes stopped him )

[co-joe]

Air Canada and Westjet need to put these fly-by-nighters out of business before they totally piss off the travelling public or crash one of their A/C into the side of a mountain! When Westjet started, they at least stuck to their guns and delivered a good product!!

The fear among us is exactly that. That AC and WJ will lower the bar even further to prevent ULCC's from gaining market share. How will they do that? Aircaft costs are fixed, fuel is fixed, landing fees, building leases/ mortgages, everything is a fixed cost with only small areas of savings possible.

So what isn't a fixed cost you ask? Wages. Think about that. Take all the time you need. Pilots, FA's, Engineers, ramp staff, check in counter staff, office staff will bear the weight of the cost cutting. This is one more step in the race to the bottom.

[GRK2]

You want to compare KFC mtce with ROYAL? HAhahahahahahahahahahahahaha...that's rich my friend. I almost choked on my poutine! Barry against M Leblanc? You need to go back and learn a little Canadian aviation history...you might also learn the story about WS being told to wait until all their AOC ducks were in a row (Mtce. was one reason) before they went to work. They did end up with a mostly good product, but now it seems they have had a change in the way they do business...Cookie cutter airline, same as the rest! So it seems that Flair has a good strong backing, good strong maintenance,a route structure, a business plan (Leblanc's plan was to fleece all his employees for as much as he could get, as WELL as the travelling public...) and pays more than you give them credit for.

[goingnowherefast]

The fear among us is exactly that. That AC and WJ will lower the bar even further to prevent ULCC's from gaining market share. How will they do that? Aircaft costs are fixed, fuel is fixed, landing fees, building leases/ mortgages, everything is a fixed cost with only small areas of savings possible.

So what isn't a fixed cost you ask? Wages. Think about that. Take all the time you need. Pilots, FA's, Engineers, ramp staff, check in counter staff, office staff will bear the weight of the cost cutting. This is one more step in the race to the bottom.

Perks aren't fixed costs either. That plastic cup of water and the pretzels go away, carry-on bag costs money now, paper boarding pass costs another $4, no entertainment system, etc. Plus they'll cram as many people into the plane as legally possible, so you'll be chewing on your knees and pressed up against that medium sized person seated beside you. Then they could over-utilise the airframes, and the airline will be constantly be running late. But hey, if the Jonny Q. Public wants that ticket for $50 cheaper, they can be herded like cattle, uncomfortable and late. It's a free market.

Right now is a great time for pilots that a ULCC is trying to get started. They'll have to pay decent salaries to attract flight crews. Otherwise, the planes won't fly.

[crazyaviator]

Right now is a great time for pilots that a ULCC is trying to get started. They'll have to pay decent salaries to attract flight crews. Otherwise, the planes won't fly.

As is often the case, Pilots do not give a rats ass about anyone else other than themselves Pathetic !!!

[flyinhigh]

Perks aren't fixed costs either. That plastic cup of water and the pretzels go away, carry-on bag costs money now, paper boarding pass costs another $4, no entertainment system, etc. Plus they'll cram as many people into the plane as legally possible, so you'll be chewing on your knees and pressed up against that medium sized person seated beside you. Then they could over-utilise the airframes, and the airline will be constantly be running late. But hey, if the Jonny Q. Public wants that ticket for $50 cheaper, they can be herded like cattle, uncomfortable and late. It's a free market.

Right now is a great time for pilots that a ULCC is trying to get started. They'll have to pay decent salaries to attract flight crews. Otherwise, the planes won't fly.

Hate to say it, but I took new leaf when it started and saved a lot more than $50. WJ and AC were 2500 to go to Victoria. New leaf was $1030. For a 2 hour flight, do you really need all the perks, not me. Obviously the plan was flawed from the get go, however I do wish Flair best of luck with this and I think that it will do ok if done right.

[JoeShmoe]

I've also flown with new leaf three times now, and had a good experience each time. Ive noticed that not only does new leaf charge on average half as much as air canada and westjet on the routes that it flys, but air canada and westjet are matching new leaf prices. But they only match prices on the days of the week new leaf flys, every other day they go back to charging twice as much. As a pilot who doesn't get flight benefits, im saving a ton of money because of new leaf, so I sincerely hope they not only stick around, but continue to force air canada and westjet to stay honest with their prices.

As for service with new leaf, its pretty average. Im a big fan of how they charge less for a checked bag then a carry on. It completely eliminates the rush for overhead bin space because nobody has ginormous carry ons anymore. The planes are fine, more leg room then transat, and ive never noticed the lack of entertainment system cause I've always just read off my phone.

As for this whole pilot wage business, Im just happy there's another route to a large jet that doesn't force you to suffer through jazz or encore for 5 years.

More competition means lower fares, lower fares mean more passengers flying, more passengers flying mean more flights, more flights mean more pilots, more demand for pilots means higher wages. Theses are all good things. Now whether or not new leaf survives much longer is a whole other question.

[Black_Tusk]

suffer through jazz or encore for 5 years.

Woe is me, it's so hard flying at jazz.

[infiniteregulus]

I don't disagree that more routes equals more pilots, however, more routes and competition at all-time low wages equal lowering of the bar for EVERYONE.

[mbav8r]

As for this whole pilot wage business, Im just happy there's another route to a large jet that doesn't force you to suffer through jazz or encore for 5 years.

So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.

[leftoftrack]

So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.

It's his responsibility to make sure you earn more money? in what world is it his responsibility to ensure that you make more money? If you dont like the money you earn, look at yourself. If he refuses the job he works at so you make more money does that mean your going to pay his mortgage and bills?

[mbav8r]

So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.

It's his responsibility to make sure you earn more money? in what world is it his responsibility to ensure that you make more money? If you dont like the money you earn, look at yourself. If he refuses the job he works at so you make more money does that mean your going to pay his mortgage and bills?

Leftoftrack,
First of all, I'm on the original contract, so for now at least, I'm fine. In fact some would argue I benefited from the new contract forced on us, my seniority is rising fairly rapidly, that doesn't make me feel any better about the fact plenty of pilots undercut our industry leading contract forcing change! Using the "paying the mortgage" excuse simply doesn't FUC&ING justify it, I can say this because I personally have turned down shit paying jobs from shitty operations because I refused to perpetuate the problem. I also didn't bend to the will of the owners under the threat of them finding 10 more pilots who would but if it helps you feel better about being a douchbag, tell yourself whatever you need to, just know, no one respects those pilots and some even wish them ill will.
Hypothetical question, if Sky Regional were to grow and Jazz were to shrink, all the pilots that are now unable to pay their mortgage, that's ok with you?

[leftoftrack]

I'm pretty sure first year pay at sky regional is more than JAZZ.