WestJet To Launch ULCC

[Rotten Apple #1]

"IF ALPA is successful, I'll watch from the sidelines. I won't be joining the union and I won't be walking a stike line but I'll glady cross it. I didn't get into aviation because of the brotherhood and I'm not going to start now. I don't care what intimidation tactics ALPA goons employ from blanket parties, whistles, or keying my 1998 Ford Explorer, and I don't care what the the reaction of my co-workers is. I was hired by WJ and I've been treated very well here and I believe in keeping my company nimble enough to react to market conditions in order to avoid the dung heap of obscalescence that is thre history of North American airlines."
JS 4799

Truly the most disgusting post I've read from a fellow pilot.
What's the point in trying to better this industry and maintain some semblance of cohesion and professionalism when you have humans like this who care about nothing but themselves and are willing to jump on whatever bandwagon either suits thier best interests of saves their hides.
We all know if he had an incident tomorrow he would be begging someone for the alpa hotline and a sign up form.

no one gives a flying squirrel fart about your flying squirrel suit,

No. I've already turned down ALPA's invitation to join and I won't come crawling for help from ALPA in the future despite whatever you post from the security of your tiny little anonymous world. You obviously don't know me if you think otherwise.

I was hired by WestJet and will continue to be employed by WestJet and the only thing I can see ALPA doing for me is ruining any chance I have to make $370,000 again next year. But it's not about me, so I'll take the seniority bidding they negotaite and work ten days a month because that's how ALPA does things. I'm hearing more and more scuttlebut about the YVR base closeing on the next bid so I think I'll just keep doing my squirrel fart stuff and let you .80 worry about the profession while I look out for my own shit.

I'm in the Chicago area for the next week if you're looking for me. Wringing out a new suit. Off to a comp in Atlanta the week after that. Not sure when I'll check in again but I'm sure you'll have something contructive to add.

Oh, and BTW, the reason I told ALPA I was not applying was because I told them I wouldn't meet their constitutional requirement of "good moral character". So you are likely correct, I care about nothing but myself and won't be doing anything to improve the profession besides doing my job to the best of my ability every time I go to work.

[WhatThe?]

Yep I can see Westjet paying for the moving costs for the entire Vancouver base. Shut up!

The Union will remove the companies ability to do that type of Sh!t without financial consequences.

[Arctic84]

Still think seniority bidding is coming your way?

You really haven't been paying attention to the way things are rolling out.

[Schooner69A]

Arctic84:

As one who assiduously avoided companies that had unions and am therefore a little undereducated in that regard, would you elaborate on "Still think seniority bidding is coming your way"?

I googled seniority bidding and found the following link. It seems to imply that seniority bidding is the way to go.

http://www.askthepilot.com/questionanswers/seniority/

There were others involving flight attendants, but they all seemed to say the same thing.

J

[Magpie]

Paying attention? There hasn't been any communication to anyone who doesn't have a private email set up. Same ol empty promises of greener pastures Arctic.

[Arctic84]

Seniority bidding is absolutely the way to go. One hundred thousand airline pilots can't be wrong.

Being an airline pilot isn't like any other professional career. How many lawyers move from one firm, where they are a senior partner, to another where they are the lowest clerk, working for the lowest wage?

That is the reality of our deal. Your experience is not transferable with commensurate pay. So seniority should mean something. But not at WJ. A lack of seniority is all part of the devaluation of the pilot profession.

After sucking up the benefits of no seniority, the union haters now want to enjoy a perk that unionized pilots fought hard to keep over the years. Irony, that's what that is. Trouble is that after all the years of the yellow union the priorities for minimum credit and duty rigs, fatigue rules, protection of company flying and endless other things put seniority bidding, which is wanted by only a few at the end of a long list. No negotiating capital is going to be spent on something only a tiny minority wants.

Too bad for some. But if you plan on working until 75, maybe you'll get your wish.

[Arctic84]

Paying attention? There hasn't been any communication to anyone who doesn't have a private email set up. Same ol empty promises of greener pastures Arctic.

The last bunch had 17 years to get an industry standard agreement. They didn't. Now you're torqued because ALPA hasn't duked you enough after 29 days? Puh-leeze.

[Magpie]

Enjoy retirement

[Schooner69A]

Arctic84:

I'm a little lost... Tack that up to being unfamiliar with airlines, it was not my background.

You're saying that some WJ pilots are against seniority? That somebody who started at WJ a year ago wants parity with somebody who started two years ago? Wouldn't that screw up promotions, etc? That doesn't make sense.

What am I missing?

J

[Blue42]

Paying attention? There hasn't been any communication to anyone who doesn't have a private email set up. Same ol empty promises of greener pastures Arctic.

Yup, one month in and not one communication to your newly certified group! What a great move....

[jjj]

Arctic,

I often hear the term industry standard as you mentioned in your post.

Frankly I think people use the term loosely and truthfully mean cherry picking.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Could you elaborate on what the components of an industry standard agreement are and who has such a thing in Canada. AC has a lovely set of WAWCON - is there anyone else?

Your post seems to imply that WestJet pilots are below par. AC has us beat - I get it - but does anyone else?

Thanks in advance.

[fish4life]

Arctic,

I often hear the term industry standard as you mentioned in your post.

Frankly I think people use the term loosely and truthfully mean cherry picking.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Could you elaborate on what the components of an industry standard agreement are and who has such a thing in Canada. AC has a lovely set of WAWCON - is there anyone else?

Your post seems to imply that WestJet pilots are below par. AC has us beat - I get it - but does anyone else?

Thanks in advance.

Every single US carrier

[Magpie]

Wait! We live in the US? We have the same revenues? Cost structures? Please explain fish! Sorry but that's irrelevant. While we are at it, should we include the sandbox or China? Lol

[Black_Tusk]

AC has us beat - I get it - but does anyone else?

If you think AC has you beat, then so does Jazz. Jazz's contract from a working conditions standpoint beats AC.

[JBI]

There hasn't been any communication to anyone who doesn't have a private email set up.

As I understand it, there will be no union communications sent to your company email address - there has been ongoing legal discussions in Canada about the appropriateness of doing so. From speaking with colleagues at Jazz, this is the same thing ALPA does there - all communications go to personal emails. As legally, a company has the right to access your company email account, not sending union emails there creates a little more of a separation between church and state.

So, if you do want emails and information, you should sign up with an email.

Seniority bidding is absolutely the way to go. One hundred thousand airline pilots can't be wrong.

Being an airline pilot isn't like any other professional career. How many lawyers move from one firm, where they are a senior partner, to another where they are the lowest clerk, working for the lowest wage?

That is the reality of our deal. Your experience is not transferable with commensurate pay. So seniority should mean something. But not at WJ. A lack of seniority is all part of the devaluation of the pilot profession.

I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking, but a few thoughts:

1- The use of the term 'seniority' can mean many things. Even at WestJet prior to certification, pilots would get promoted based on seniority. Bases, generally speaking, are also assigned by seniority. While the socialized bidding is not done via seniority, you can't say WestJet doesn't currently have seniority.

2- Lawyers, like many other professions, get promoted (very loosely) on merit and skill. No, they do not generally go from senior partner to junior associate. However, if they do not have the proper skill set (i.e. they want to go to a different area of law) or they do not have the client base, then yes, they would take a pay cut.

3- Your claim that a 'lack of seniority' at WestJet is not only false (i.e. if a Captain from any other 737 or 767 operator decided to make the move they would not get Captain's pay at WestJet) but it is non sequitur that it leads to a devaluation of the pilot profession. The newly certified WestJet pilots will decide, as a majority, how they would like to have their seniority and scheduling set out. If it stays completely socialized that's great, if they do decide to factor in some amount of seniority, that's great too.

While I think seniority in some degree is necessary for job security - there is a huge asset for being valued for your skill not simply based on your number. In the practice of law, if a lawyer has a distinct skill set and a loyal stable of clients, he or she can pick whatever firm they want to work at and get paid handsomely for it. Doesn't matter if the 13 year associate has worked their ass off, the money talks and a firms will very regularly bring in outside partners. Is that 'devaluing' the legal profession? There are pros and cons no doubt, but I wouldn't use the term devaluing.

So, while I do not support, no do I think we'll see, junior all-star FOs getting promoted to Captain over senior FOs who are simply adequate - there are many different types of seniority in aviation and the existence or lack thereof is not something that devalues the profession.

[atphat]

AC has us beat - I get it - but does anyone else?

If you think AC has you beat, then so does Jazz. Jazz's contract from a working conditions standpoint beats AC.[/quote

"Working conditions" is a very broad concept. Included in it is wage. WAWCON (wage and working conditions), is the gernerally accepted term.

The two cannot be separated. I don't care how many days off a month I'm getting, or how much better my reserve Sched is if I'm getting paid $10 an hour to fly.

(I know it's not that low)

[jjj]

Arctic,

I often hear the term industry standard as you mentioned in your post.

Frankly I think people use the term loosely and truthfully mean cherry picking.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Could you elaborate on what the components of an industry standard agreement are and who has such a thing in Canada. AC has a lovely set of WAWCON - is there anyone else?

Your post seems to imply that WestJet pilots are below par. AC has us beat - I get it - but does anyone else?

Thanks in advance.

Every single US carrier

Untrue.

Many do - but certainly not all.

Next.

[Magpie]

That's the thing. 1 month and not even an intro email and apparently "they" are just now trying to "call" people. Thinking not a good first impression. Gotta ask the question of how one can sign up when one doesn't get a "sign up" email? Get my drift? I understand future communications but an intro letter would have been nice. It's the same ol lack of communication.

[jjj]

Magpie,

They will not use comapny email for Union business. It's part of the separation of church and state.

Just recently they were provided with phone numbers so they have to reach out to the remaining minority via archaic methods.

I would be happy to send you the appropriate sign up information if you please. It will only take a minute of your time.

PM me and I can get that to you ASAP.

JJJ

[yycflyguy]

Arctic,

I often hear the term industry standard as you mentioned in your post.

Frankly I think people use the term loosely and truthfully mean cherry picking.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Could you elaborate on what the components of an industry standard agreement are and who has such a thing in Canada. AC has a lovely set of WAWCON - is there anyone else?

Your post seems to imply that WestJet pilots are below par. AC has us beat - I get it - but does anyone else?

Thanks in advance.

Every single US carrier

Untrue.

Many do - but certainly not all.

Next.

AC has a long way to go to match US legacy carriers as far as WAWCON goes. Both American and Delta pilots just got significant raises. I was overseas speaking to a United guy who may have pooped his shorts when I explained that our European flights, through the night at circadian lows, are done with two guys and a deadheading pilot sipping Malbec in the back. For the return flight, during daylight and circadian high, that same pilot operated with us to give us a break simply because the flight time exceeds an arbitrary value set 85 years ago. No science. No logic.

Instead of looking to what industry minimum is, we need to collectively look to better the standards. The way you guys set up your International structure will be used against me in negotiations with a separate company and vice-versa. ALPA represents a method to achieve that. My apologies to the Canadian industry for what ACPA did to WAWCON... for what it is worth, I always vote NO to ACPA votes (except to strike)