$10.00 ?

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:42 pm

tonysoprano wrote:Flightlevels said:
"Tony..I was responding to a stupid comment on profit share with a stupid comment of my own...didn't you see the irony? get my point? with alot of time now for the newhires...lol. don't be such a hypocrite. think of your posting if you can...pension comes to mind...lol. "

Ya right dude, nice comeback. What the heck does pension have to do with it? I'm talking straight salary. Ask any of the newer guys if their mortgage will be paid off any time soon. You would be insulting them. Profit sharing has a time and place. At WJ, that time is gone. Now you're relying on straight salary. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Don't feel threatened by it. I can easily throw the hypocrate comment right back at ya. Anyway, it's so f**ken funny how Blastor gets to you guys.

he doesn't get to me , I know who he is in fact. But it seems to me that you were shooting your mouth off about your pension statement and a six figure salary..the right seat in your bus must be fine ... Staight salary isn't the only thing that I have pulled this year, I have pulled options when the price was 16 ish and esp has been sold twice this year bumping my earnings up (but I won't say how much

)...but I guess you are telling me we have nothing else, as if you were here...new guys will have a chance at that too....options are issued annually and on a 5 day average around the agm...so in other words if the stock was $5 then they are issued around that and it only has to go up a little to make alot with huge tax advantages over just salary, but if it goes down c'est la vie.... Ya a fair base pay. Still the same if not more base than AC isn't it?.....dude...lol

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:52 pm

".... but if it goes down c'est la vie.... Ya a fair base pay. Still the same if not more base than AC isn't it?.....dude...lol[/quote]"

So with the stock going down, what's the deal? Making or losing? Thanx but I think I'll stick to my $120 bucks an hour. I never was much of a gambler.
You really know who he is?

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:59 pm

tonysoprano wrote:".... but if it goes down c'est la vie.... Ya a fair base pay. Still the same if not more base than AC isn't it?.....dude...lol

Fair enough...

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:23 pm

Base at AC and Base at WJ are not the same. I have always been interested in the Westjet system and have been researching it.

First you have to compare apples to apples. Stock options are WestJets answer to a pension so lets not compare that with salary just yet.

According to airlinepilotpay.com, (which has accurate numbers as they are supplied by the individual pilot groups ) the most senior Westjet Capt is making $9600/month salary. The most senior AC Captain is making $18,200/month salary. That is before pension adjustment or stock options.

Lets break it down into aircraft equivelants.

A 10 Year 737 Captain at WestJet makes $9600/month salary
A 10 year 320 F/O at AC makes $9860/month salary
A 12 year EMB Captain at AC makes $11,500/month salary
A 10 Year 320 Captain at AC makes $14,700/month salary

These are based on an 85 hour month.

So once you reach the 10 year 320 F/O pay at AC, you are making more than a 10 year Westjet Captain in salary.

Now lets talk pension.

Both the AC system and WJ system are not guaranteed and have elements of risk. Without debating which is riskier, At AC you will retire, assuming a 30 year career with a salary or pension of approx $120,000 per year. $60,000 of which is guaranteed by the govt.

To retire on a salary of $120,000 the WestJet guys are going to have to bank $1.8 million over the same 30 year career. So basically your stock options, if not already sold, have to be worth $1.8 million when you retire.

Wind Ryder · Post by **Wind Ryder** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:52 pm

Very well written as well as informative, without being derogatory. Well done Mr. Strappe

RVSM · Post by **RVSM** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:01 pm

Actually, quite accurate JS. One small point. At WJ we are flying 80 hours per month. If we fly 85 in a month, the additional are at time and a half. That would bring the monthly gross to about $10,500.

Also, if ya got time, I have some questions about the EMB. What is the max altitude, normal cruise, and fuel burn per hour at cruise.

Thanks.

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:59 pm

RVSM wrote:Actually, quite accurate JS. One small point. At WJ we are flying 80 hours per month. If we fly 85 in a month, the additional are at time and a half. That would bring the monthly gross to about $10,500.

RVSM: How many 85 hour months have you done lately though? A better thing to say would be that you always get paid for 80 hours minimum, even if you are only blocked to say, 68...

Jacques (I corrected the spelling of your name, hope you don't mind): Are you guaranteed a min per month, or you just paid based on what you fly/are blocked too? Is 85 a normal month?

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:15 pm

Jaques...one correction and it is kinda a big one... options are not the pension...the esp is...20% of earnings are matched for example if your base is 100,000/yr you put in 20 grand the company matches it...that's 40k earning about 3200/yr on a modest 8% return and compounding...here are some more examples of esp

1st yr fo puts in 8000...matched equals =16k(to pension)
2nd yr fo puts 10000.. =20k (max contrib plus extra)
3rd yr fo puts 10600 =21.2

in only 3 yrs as an fo = 57 thousand in savings earning roughly4200 at 8% return and compounding, even if you were a liffer fo for 30yrs you would compound up around 1 mil in savings. God willing WJ be around that long. I'll be gone for sure...lol...

1st yr captain 70k puts in esp/matched =28 000 in saving/yr

to work out the compounding intrest at even low rates of return leaves one very comfortable...I have seen projections and these are real numbers from my finacial planner.....

The key is to Diversify to avoid the volitility and being such a volitile industry these numbers will go up and down not much more than the returns on your plan thus giving us better than the 1.8 you speak of in esp ALONE. A safety thing to do is pull your portion and the company portion YR over YR and my finacial planner does that automatically no matter what the price and diversifies.

Having said that look at the other engines the esp can do alone....that 100 000/ yr captain banking 40K with an average home mortgage of say 200,000 can pay that off in 5 yrs...pretty cool stuff

options are a bonus.
as is profit share. thus adding to the base salary and putting discredit to the assumption that per yr earnings the AC pilot will always make more. I have only been on propery for a little more than 5 yrs and have gone past the ERJ 12 yr twice without counting my ESP.
salary keeps the heat and vacations happening...I remember a day one'er showing me his T4 for 750,000 a couple of yrs ago...I realize those days are gone too...

but still very good here.

I don't mean for this to be a pissing contest just some FYI.

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:45 pm

BTW when I mentined base pay in the above to tony I was refering to the starting salaries... not the extended ones,not to mislead you Jaques. sry if I did.

Blastor · Post by **Blastor** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:59 pm

What the heck does pension have to do with it

Don't worry, there's NO pension at WJ. Period. Glad to have stocks in an Airline, of all thing. Y'know the most stable, solid investment you can make

Things are good at WJ . Employee turn-over rate is at an all-time-high! How'bout that

Jumpseat? Wasn't an MOT ruling lately about this? Only flight crew allowed, no revenue (STDBY) allowed.

.

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:27 pm

I'd spend a few minutes explaining math to you but doing calculations that involve adding, subtracting, and god forbid multiplication and division would send your mind spinning!!

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:39 pm

Hey Flightlevels

I didn't know you guys had an ESP as well. That is in effect a self directed or managed pension if you will. So long as you are disciplined and as you say, diversify it should work out well.

I guess it is very much like a Defined Contribution fund verses the Defined Benefit at AC. To be honest, I would rather have the Defined Contribution but it is very difficult to convince a bunch of fifty year olds!

Grammerboy

Thanks for correcting my spelling. I guess thats why you have the handle that you do! The guarantees vary depending on if you have vacation in your block or if you bid reserve, that sort of thing. Most months are 85 hours, some 90 and some 80. It also depends on the aircraft and its' route structure. I used 85 because it is the median for the 320 and below.

RVSM

The EMB 175 has a ceiling of FL410, Cruise M.80 MMO .82 with the cost of fuel now, AC will be cruising at M.74 which gives a fuel burn in the area of 1800kgs per hour. I don't know what the 190 numbers are yet.

RVSM · Post by **RVSM** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:55 pm

JS, thanks for the info. If you want to know an airplanes performance, ask the man who flies it, I figure.

I have not flown the 600 yet. I am curious to compare notes on burns and speeds between the 600 and EMB175/190.

A330 · Post by **A330** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:00 am

WJ scheme has been good and a great way to force save, but the only problem is the month to month income. It might be diffucult to save the eps and profit share. If I was on a pretty strict budget, I'd be blowing that cash fast. Interested thread though...

Blastor · Post by **Blastor** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:32 am

You're right: Month to month can be difficult to say the least. That might be the trigger for unions to make inroads, you never know

FL and I go waaay back... we shall go for a drink, eventually.

WestJet Airlines WJA-T Last Trade:Sep 02, 2005 10:09 EST
Last: C$ 10.830 Net Change: C$ 0.030 % Change: 0.28%

.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:09 am

I don't think unions will be banging down the door anytime soon. I think the pay system at Westjet is a very creative one and sensible freethinking people will do well with it.

My 2 cents.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:26 pm

Has CATSA approved WJ Flight Deck Regulations now that CASS is approved or are some of you WJ folks making your own rules? It could cost you your security clearance for being a nice guy..I'm not being judgemental as I've being there, done that, just a word of caution..

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:16 pm

Rebel, no they haven't changed, when I mentioned people in the jumpseat, I was in context to having employees in the jump.the only way they are getting around)

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:29 pm

Hmm we're only allowed to carry flight crew with current security clearance until we negotiate further approval from CATSA. Be careful..

Blastor · Post by **Blastor** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:48 pm

Jacque: From reliable sources, it seems the unions did make progress with some dept, but when WJ mangment found out, some people lost their job....

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:21 pm

What are you guys talking about?...we are allowed to carry company employees no matter what dept. they work in...ie admin etc...doesn't have to be flt crew abiet another resource in the flt deck(flt crew member) would be better if shat hit the fan, as long as there are no seats available in the back and of course a few little house keeping details not worthy of discussing on a forum. Sorry if I missed something. I have yet to hear of anyone losing thier job over misuse of flt deck rules. I work in flt ops to know this and no communication has come out of misuse or are you referring to AC? This by the way Rebel is very clear in our COM and the COM is approved by transport(with a fairly fresh ammendment) can't get much more careful than that. Or are you referring to the individuals we let up? BTW we are not allowed this priveledge when flying to the US. other than specific people with specific rules...

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:21 pm

As far as I know CATSA rules apply to everyone in the same way. For example, our flt deck access is restricted to employees and TC guys only and within that group there is a list of priorities for that seat ie. TC inspectors, company pilots, fa's and so on. I would imagine WJ is the same or very similar. I heard a story where R. Milton's dad was denied the j/s in Miami. He raised hell but then again he's not even an employee.He would be treated like an employee partner just like everyone else. Kinda funny actually. I guess we're getting further away from the main topic of this thread which is a good thing.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:16 pm

As a professional courtesy I was passing on CASS information approved July 31,2005 that you should be aware of. Oh and CATSA rules apply to everyone. Good luck..

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:39 pm

There is nothing out on this from work and I even went back and viewed all old memos incase I missed something. I guess we are not affected by it, this of course not to say we won't in the future. I will dig around at the higher level and sent ya a quick note on what I find out. For now the employees can still enjoy the priveledge if we are full...

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:20 pm

Flightlevels

There should be something there. The Americans especially will not take kindly to unregulated access to Flt decks. If you touch down somewhere in the U.S with a payroll secretary in the Flight Deck and the FAA ramps you, then be prepared for the rath of Homeland Security.

Same goes north of the 49th. The person must be a FLT OPS or Inflight employee with a valid MOT pass or TC inspector.

At AC, Milton needs a special note to fly in the jump seat as he does not meet the criteria.