Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
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Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Rookie: its' interesting you choose those 2 airlines...
Both are reeling from record losses and big problems at home.
Cathay was recently downgraded from 8th to 69th and has laid off 100's of employees with the stock tumbling.
Singapore, also being hit with record losses, will no doubt be reviewing its network and business plan, they are also believed to be configuring 3/4/3 on their new 777s and have announced consolidation of its 3 LCCs Silk/Scoot/Tiger.
With all that's happening there it will be interesting to see how that affects the product...
Anyway, my post was more about the humour in the contradiction of the ad vs. the story...
You can deflect and deny all you want, point to AC or United, but you might as well point to Aeroflot too because it's about as relevant and it doesn't change anything...
Now that Westjet has blood in the water CBC et al will no doubt come for more.
NA media is all over it. This kind of thing isn't in the news cycle in the rest of the world. We woudn't understand it anyway if it was - language and all...
Both are reeling from record losses and big problems at home.
Cathay was recently downgraded from 8th to 69th and has laid off 100's of employees with the stock tumbling.
Singapore, also being hit with record losses, will no doubt be reviewing its network and business plan, they are also believed to be configuring 3/4/3 on their new 777s and have announced consolidation of its 3 LCCs Silk/Scoot/Tiger.
With all that's happening there it will be interesting to see how that affects the product...
Anyway, my post was more about the humour in the contradiction of the ad vs. the story...
You can deflect and deny all you want, point to AC or United, but you might as well point to Aeroflot too because it's about as relevant and it doesn't change anything...
Now that Westjet has blood in the water CBC et al will no doubt come for more.
NA media is all over it. This kind of thing isn't in the news cycle in the rest of the world. We woudn't understand it anyway if it was - language and all...
- rookiepilot
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Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Alt,
I will fly airlines where the staff treats their customers as customers, not self loading freight. With simple respect.
That is why an airline like Cathay has the reputation it does, and AC by contrast its widely held reputation.
We need more competition in this country, that is the issue with customer service in Canada. When there is only a couple of options, and often only one, there is no incentive for companies to do above the bare minimum.
Here's an option, AC fans.
Let the US airlines in -- give them slots for YYZ - YVR, give AC slots LGA - LAX. Think that's a fair trade.
Deal?
I will fly airlines where the staff treats their customers as customers, not self loading freight. With simple respect.
That is why an airline like Cathay has the reputation it does, and AC by contrast its widely held reputation.
We need more competition in this country, that is the issue with customer service in Canada. When there is only a couple of options, and often only one, there is no incentive for companies to do above the bare minimum.
Here's an option, AC fans.
Let the US airlines in -- give them slots for YYZ - YVR, give AC slots LGA - LAX. Think that's a fair trade.
Deal?
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Rookie, while there is no disputing that some AC frontline employees can be difficult to deal with, I would argue you will encounter this anywhere.
I recently witnessed an exchange between a passenger and gate agent, the passenger who missed the last flight home was understandably upset but it was her own fault, she was in the bar and had not set her watch to local time, she admitted it was her fault but that didn't stop her from yelling, not talking loud, yelling! "I paid AC to get me home, get me home" etc. It was the last flight and this agent was nothing but professional, never lost her cool and at some point this passenger calmed down and was able to listen to reason.
Now, imagine you deal with this twice, three times or more a day, how long before you can keep your cool 100% of the time. Passengers abuse the frontline employees all the time, another time after the whole crew who was reassigned to a different flight worked extremely hard to get the flight out as quick as possible, passengers walking on the delayed flight were mostly rude, the odd smile but mostly rude.
I've had encounters with employees at different businesses and after the exchange I always think the employee was rude and ignorant, my wife who keeps me honest will often tell me I started that and in those situations I don't blame them for giving it back to me, it's frustrating when it's pointed out and I guarantee if she wasn't there I would walk away thinking what a shitty employee, my point is if you continue to have problems with different AC employees, maybe it's you. How do you come across? Do you think it's ok to be short and discourteous and not get it in return?
I recently witnessed an exchange between a passenger and gate agent, the passenger who missed the last flight home was understandably upset but it was her own fault, she was in the bar and had not set her watch to local time, she admitted it was her fault but that didn't stop her from yelling, not talking loud, yelling! "I paid AC to get me home, get me home" etc. It was the last flight and this agent was nothing but professional, never lost her cool and at some point this passenger calmed down and was able to listen to reason.
Now, imagine you deal with this twice, three times or more a day, how long before you can keep your cool 100% of the time. Passengers abuse the frontline employees all the time, another time after the whole crew who was reassigned to a different flight worked extremely hard to get the flight out as quick as possible, passengers walking on the delayed flight were mostly rude, the odd smile but mostly rude.
I've had encounters with employees at different businesses and after the exchange I always think the employee was rude and ignorant, my wife who keeps me honest will often tell me I started that and in those situations I don't blame them for giving it back to me, it's frustrating when it's pointed out and I guarantee if she wasn't there I would walk away thinking what a shitty employee, my point is if you continue to have problems with different AC employees, maybe it's you. How do you come across? Do you think it's ok to be short and discourteous and not get it in return?
- rookiepilot
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Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Why would you assume from my posts I've personally had any problems? I didn't say that.mbav8r wrote:Rookie, while there is no disputing that some AC frontline employees can be difficult to deal with, I would argue you will encounter this anywhere.
I recently witnessed an exchange between a passenger and gate agent, the passenger who missed the last flight home was understandably upset but it was her own fault, she was in the bar and had not set her watch to local time, she admitted it was her fault but that didn't stop her from yelling, not talking loud, yelling! "I paid AC to get me home, get me home" etc. It was the last flight and this agent was nothing but professional, never lost her cool and at some point this passenger calmed down and was able to listen to reason.
Now, imagine you deal with this twice, three times or more a day, how long before you can keep your cool 100% of the time. Passengers abuse the frontline employees all the time, another time after the whole crew who was reassigned to a different flight worked extremely hard to get the flight out as quick as possible, passengers walking on the delayed flight were mostly rude, the odd smile but mostly rude.
I've had encounters with employees at different businesses and after the exchange I always think the employee was rude and ignorant, my wife who keeps me honest will often tell me I started that and in those situations I don't blame them for giving it back to me, it's frustrating when it's pointed out and I guarantee if she wasn't there I would walk away thinking what a shitty employee, my point is if you continue to have problems with different AC employees, maybe it's you. How do you come across? Do you think it's ok to be short and discourteous and not get it in return?
This is an analysis, nothing more, of observations I've seen of employees behaviour, at different airlines. I'm very, very polite to airline personnel, both because I believe deeply in treating service employees with respect, and usually people are more helpful when treated with kindness.
That said, I've encountered at AC extreme rudeness in some employees -- admittedly rarely -- AFTER I treated them with polite respect. Check in agents seem to be the worst. I don't react, because honestly, I want to get home. I don't argue.
I have honestly never seen that with other airlines, and I've flown most of them.
On a BA flight last year, (my fault) we were going to miss the flight. I missed a train to the airport. I told an agent while waiting in line, she immediately took us to the front to check in, then WALKED us to the front of the security line. Unbelievable service. I profusely thanked her, blew me away. And this is BA at LGW. Not a sleepy airport.
All airlines have to deal with both difficult issues and difficult passengers. Why is it that some airlines repeatedly make the news, and many never do?
Read a few reviews here, M:
http://www.airlinequality.com/airline-r ... ir-canada/
See a common theme? Or why AC is rated as low as they are, from hundreds of comments?
Nice try ...it isn't me.
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
US carriers wouldn't go for it. It's not a fair trade and shows your ignorance/prejudice in the matter.rookiepilot wrote:
Let the US airlines in -- give them slots for YYZ - YVR, give AC slots LGA - LAX. Think that's a fair trade.
Additionally, allowing outright cabotage without reciprocity would be ridiculously stupid.
We'll never see it happen - but I'd be happy to see Canada/US open skies from my perspective... I'd be happier to see Canadian regulators/airports get in line with US policies re:fees/taxes.
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
AC is competing directly with those US carriers your heart desires on international travel and they are doing an extremely good job taking passengers from the US overseas so maybe they aren't as good as you think.altiplano wrote:US carriers wouldn't go for it. It's not a fair trade and shows your ignorance/prejudice in the matter.rookiepilot wrote:
Let the US airlines in -- give them slots for YYZ - YVR, give AC slots LGA - LAX. Think that's a fair trade.
Additionally, allowing outright cabotage without reciprocity would be ridiculously stupid.
We'll never see it happen - but I'd be happy to see Canada/US open skies from my perspective... I'd be happier to see Canadian regulators/airports get in line with US policies re:fees/taxes.
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Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
I have traveled with every major US carrier. I can assure you the majority aren't even close to the Canadian carriers when it comes to service and attitude.fish4life wrote:AC is competing directly with those US carriers your heart desires on international travel and they are doing an extremely good job taking passengers from the US overseas so maybe they aren't as good as you think.altiplano wrote:US carriers wouldn't go for it. It's not a fair trade and shows your ignorance/prejudice in the matter.rookiepilot wrote:
Let the US airlines in -- give them slots for YYZ - YVR, give AC slots LGA - LAX. Think that's a fair trade.
Additionally, allowing outright cabotage without reciprocity would be ridiculously stupid.
We'll never see it happen - but I'd be happy to see Canada/US open skies from my perspective... I'd be happier to see Canadian regulators/airports get in line with US policies re:fees/taxes.
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Same! Have recently been on Delta, United, AA, Alaskan and Southwest. While the service on alaskan was decent, the rest were at best, marginal.godsrcrazy wrote: I have traveled with every major US carrier. I can assure you the majority aren't even close to the Canadian carriers when it comes to service and attitude.
YMMV
- rookiepilot
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Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Look guys. If AC is so superior on service, why did they fight competition from Porter tooth and nail?
They had no interest in YTZ until Porter started doing well, then the attitude of the corporate bigwigs was "we are AC, we DEMAND first choice of slots anywhere we choose -- just because". "Give us porters slots -- (so we can put them out of business")
No matter Porter was there first. It's that corporate arrogance of entitlement that I dislike, too.
It's "We are AC, we don't have accidents -- we have hard landings".
Any negative publicity one can argue AC brings it on themselves. That's why WJ gets an easier ride, IMO.
I've been in the past year, (on US trips) on AA Delta United. Delta (on last trip) was really great. Others were an Ok bus ride. AC was good out of Denver, too. Maybe competition helps.
They had no interest in YTZ until Porter started doing well, then the attitude of the corporate bigwigs was "we are AC, we DEMAND first choice of slots anywhere we choose -- just because". "Give us porters slots -- (so we can put them out of business")
No matter Porter was there first. It's that corporate arrogance of entitlement that I dislike, too.
It's "We are AC, we don't have accidents -- we have hard landings".
Any negative publicity one can argue AC brings it on themselves. That's why WJ gets an easier ride, IMO.
I've been in the past year, (on US trips) on AA Delta United. Delta (on last trip) was really great. Others were an Ok bus ride. AC was good out of Denver, too. Maybe competition helps.
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Because AC is a business.rookiepilot wrote:Look guys. If AC is so superior on service, why did they fight competition from Porter tooth and nail?
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Can't agree more, thats easily a business decision not some ego play.PROC_HDG wrote:Because AC is a business.rookiepilot wrote:Look guys. If AC is so superior on service, why did they fight competition from Porter tooth and nail?
- rookiepilot
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Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
....Sure. But they sure whined to the media when they didn't get their way at YTZ.PROC_HDG wrote:Because AC is a business.rookiepilot wrote:Look guys. If AC is so superior on service, why did they fight competition from Porter tooth and nail?
This is a good read on the YTZ story.
http://business.financialpost.com/news/ ... op-airport
Seems to me AC wants to be a business when it suits them, and cry for government favouritism, also when it suits them.
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
That'll probably stop when and IF our dollar goes up, because it sure is down!fish4life wrote:altiplano wrote:AC is competing directly with those US carriers your heart desires on international travel and they are doing an extremely good job taking passengers from the US overseas so maybe they aren't as good as you think.rookiepilot wrote:
Let the US airlines in -- give them slots for YYZ - YVR, give AC slots LGA - LAX. Think that's a fair trade.
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
So they shouldn't be selling seats they don't havePROC_HDG wrote:Because AC is a business.rookiepilot wrote:Look guys. If AC is so superior on service, why did they fight competition from Porter tooth and nail?
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
Alright, wow, kids, chill out...
Let's start with something we can all agree on: the CBC's Aviation Reporting is atrocious. While they definitely pick on Air Canada way more than the other carriers, all around the quality is abysmal. I've been asked by the CBC (and other news agencies) to be interviewed a few times on various aviation / legal issues and have always declined due to either a conflict of interest or that I did not feel I would be able to add more to the story. That being said, on one issue I did offer to try and provide more information on a specific topic to further productive discussion, and it was met with crickets.
With respect to the story: a cycling team got bumped off WestJet. It sucked I'm sure. It sounds like WJ has already offered a fair bit of compensation. Will they get more? Tough to say - as it's an international flight, their ability to claim damages is covered under the Montreal Convention. The maximum amount a passenger is entitled to received due to a delayed or cancelled flight is just over $8000 CAD (4,964 Special Drawings Rights) - this is whether Super Gabor is involved or not. However, an airline can escape liability if it shows that it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay. Reasonable measures are based on what was reasonable in the situation. I don't know the particulars so could not give an opinion on whether it was reasonable.
While I don't love the WestJet Ads, it is true that WestJet doesn't overbook their flights. That's what they claim in the advertisement. It DOES NOT mean that people won't ever get bumped for other reasons. There is a very big difference.
On the flip side. Many other airlines do overbook flights and in my opinion, there is NOTHING wrong with it and it is in fact smart business sense. Air Canada, United and Delta's loads on the route that I frequent (YYZ-NYC) are always way better than WestJet's. The type of business traveller that uses this service will cancel / change / arrive late / early for these flights all the time. It makes perfect sense to ensure strong loads to factor in a certain amount of cancellations or no shows. As I understand it, the new Canadian Passenger Bill of Rights doesn't even forbid such a practice, just outlines that there needs to be set compensation in the event of bumping.
Besides, whenever Gabor comments on an article, I simply skip over the quotes. Based on his history of unsuccessful litigation, he should just stick to trying to teach instead of crusading for "justice". Reading the reviews about him on "Rate my prof" are awesome:
Let's start with something we can all agree on: the CBC's Aviation Reporting is atrocious. While they definitely pick on Air Canada way more than the other carriers, all around the quality is abysmal. I've been asked by the CBC (and other news agencies) to be interviewed a few times on various aviation / legal issues and have always declined due to either a conflict of interest or that I did not feel I would be able to add more to the story. That being said, on one issue I did offer to try and provide more information on a specific topic to further productive discussion, and it was met with crickets.
With respect to the story: a cycling team got bumped off WestJet. It sucked I'm sure. It sounds like WJ has already offered a fair bit of compensation. Will they get more? Tough to say - as it's an international flight, their ability to claim damages is covered under the Montreal Convention. The maximum amount a passenger is entitled to received due to a delayed or cancelled flight is just over $8000 CAD (4,964 Special Drawings Rights) - this is whether Super Gabor is involved or not. However, an airline can escape liability if it shows that it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay. Reasonable measures are based on what was reasonable in the situation. I don't know the particulars so could not give an opinion on whether it was reasonable.
While I don't love the WestJet Ads, it is true that WestJet doesn't overbook their flights. That's what they claim in the advertisement. It DOES NOT mean that people won't ever get bumped for other reasons. There is a very big difference.
On the flip side. Many other airlines do overbook flights and in my opinion, there is NOTHING wrong with it and it is in fact smart business sense. Air Canada, United and Delta's loads on the route that I frequent (YYZ-NYC) are always way better than WestJet's. The type of business traveller that uses this service will cancel / change / arrive late / early for these flights all the time. It makes perfect sense to ensure strong loads to factor in a certain amount of cancellations or no shows. As I understand it, the new Canadian Passenger Bill of Rights doesn't even forbid such a practice, just outlines that there needs to be set compensation in the event of bumping.
Besides, whenever Gabor comments on an article, I simply skip over the quotes. Based on his history of unsuccessful litigation, he should just stick to trying to teach instead of crusading for "justice". Reading the reviews about him on "Rate my prof" are awesome:
I digress. At this point in time, trying to have an argument about whether WJ or AC are better at customer service is a waste. It is a much better use of time to try and figure out how reporting and public relations of the aviation industry as a whole could be better. But then again, it is an internet message board, so maybe I shouldn't be making comments about what is a waste of time..."Worst prof i have ever had...."
"One of the worst profs ever. "
"Horrible. Switch immediately. ...dont waste you time. ... lukacs is an idiot genious. he cant teach, plain and simple."
Re: Westjet bumps pax after launching ad campaign that it doesn't
I think you miss the point on why it is a ridiculous trade...fish4life wrote:AC is competing directly with those US carriers your heart desires on international travel and they are doing an extremely good job taking passengers from the US overseas so maybe they aren't as good as you think.altiplano wrote:US carriers wouldn't go for it. It's not a fair trade and shows your ignorance/prejudice in the matter.rookiepilot wrote:
Let the US airlines in -- give them slots for YYZ - YVR, give AC slots LGA - LAX. Think that's a fair trade.
Additionally, allowing outright cabotage without reciprocity would be ridiculously stupid.
We'll never see it happen - but I'd be happy to see Canada/US open skies from my perspective... I'd be happier to see Canadian regulators/airports get in line with US policies re:fees/taxes.
LAX/NYC combined population ~35 million, YVR/YYZ combined population ~8 million... not to mention the amount of additional traffic outside the population that flows between NY/LA...
They aren't equivalent markets... same goes with the entire country...
US has 10X the population/market we do. They would never go for outright open markets or cherry picked route swaps with Canada.