German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Actually, I'm not personally insulted. I just think it was a bad decision.

Rockie, until you acknowledge that F/A's are a thread, this discussion will continue in its predictable circular fashion.

The Germans and Swiss are acknowledged for their analytical skills. Obviously, after analyzing the threats logically, they've determined it is safer to revert back to what was in place all along. Essentially, they trust pilots more than F/A's, which I can't disagree with.
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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Dockjock wrote:Not sure what you've proven but you sure seem satisfied.
Reminds me of when a dog lays in a ditch waiting for a car to drive by, briefly chases it, then proudly trots back home satisfied that he protected his home. Repeat. Happy dog. :)
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

For there to be a mature discussion about this certain facts need to be realized:

1. TC, your employer and the travelling public trust you to fly the aircraft safety. If that weren't true you'd be kicking a can down the road somewhere looking for a non-flying job.

2. Pilots are not immune from mental illness.

3. The flight deck door is just as effective at keeping the good guys out as the bad.
Impact wrote:Rockie, until you acknowledge that F/A's are a thread,
Explain if you can why they are a threat and you are not.
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co-joe
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by co-joe »

Rockie wrote:Who here can tell us what the FA's job was to do when he/she are in the flight deck? I asked them many times over the last year and very few of them knew.
Pretty sure it's to unlock the cockpit door when the other FCM gives the secret knock.
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complexintentions
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by complexintentions »

Rockie,

Did you ever take my advice and contact Swiss and ask them directly for their reasoning behind the change?

Or are you just too afraid of the logical, rational answer they'll give you, and want to continue getting yourself a new one torn by various other posters?

Sorry, but I will no longer engage in your false arguments. You say you want answers, but are unwilling to hear ones you don't agree with. So what's the point?

The dog chasing the car analogy was particularly apt.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

complexintentions wrote:Did you ever take my advice and contact Swiss and ask them directly for their reasoning behind the change?

Or are you just too afraid of the logical, rational answer they'll give you, and want to continue getting yourself a new one torn by various other posters?
Their rationale is public, they are unlikely to give me the real reason. You however still haven't given me a logical, rational reason why the policy should go. All you and anyone else you claim are tearing me a new one say is that the policy doesn't do anything, introduces a threat, or are insulted by it. Insulted by it by the way is the most honest and accurate reason I've ever heard. Your precious, tender little snowflake feelings are hurt by it. You should be embarrassed.

So go ahead Complex, give me an actual logical reason that I can't discredit in two sentences....
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skypirate88
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by skypirate88 »

Seems Transport Canada is also lifting the rule.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tr ... -1.4164592
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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

This is very good news. Common sense has prevailed.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Until the next time. And tragically there will be a next time...
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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Rockie wrote:Until the next time. And tragically there will be a next time...
Yes perhaps, however the risk of a different tragedy associated with an ill-willed/psychotic minimally vetted F/A has just decreased.

I salute TC for doing the right thing. It has made our industry in Canada safer.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by altiplano »

Rockie wrote:Your precious, tender little snowflake feelings are hurt by it. You should be embarrassed.

So go ahead Complex, give me an actual logical reason that I can't discredit in two sentences....
You should be embarrassed, Rockie. Swallow your pride.

You were wrong, the pilot community at large, the operators, and regulators around the world think your view is wrong. Discredit in 2 sentences? Give me a break, you've already discredited yourself with bullshit snowflake arguments.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

"Baby-sitters"
"Bathroom monitors"
"Asking permission to go to the bathroom"

These are all anybody refers to it by in private conversations. Nobody ever cites the threat flight attendants pose because you all know it's 100% undiluted b*****it, and here's why in only one sentence:

NONE of you have ever, nor will ever, deny an IC flight attendant access to the flight deck because you think they might be a threat.

As a group we've put our precious tender feelings before safety, so most definitely yes...snowflakes.
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complexintentions
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by complexintentions »

Rockie wrote:
2. Pilots are not immune from mental illness.
I do concede you make a strong case for that point. You come across as more angry and upset about all this, than anyone you accuse of having their feelings hurt. ("100% undiluted bs", etc) There are professionals you could speak with, you know. Is your CAME aware of your anger issues?
NONE of you have ever, nor will ever, deny an IC flight attendant access to the flight deck because you think they might be a threat.
Total, utter, logic fail - a perfect encapsulation of the type of arguments you make constantly. You don't seem to grasp that it is precisely the trust required to allow the IC into the flight deck that MOST of us already place in our colleague sitting next to us.

But tell us, Rockie - do you intend to keep having a FA come in and out of the flight deck every time you go take a leak? Even without the rule, there's nothing to prevent you from doing so, since you think it's "safer", right?

Not doing so would make you somewhat of a hypocrite, would it not?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

I might do that Complex, depends on company policy. My concern though is the industry safety as a whole, not the individual sitting next to me which is your logic fail. In a similar vein I'm confident the person next to me won't make stupid life threatening mistakes. I monitor him though just as I'm supposed to, and I don't go into a weepy snit fit when he monitors me just like he's supposed to. I'm pretty sure you don't either, which makes yours and others selective application of hurt feelings extremely puzzling.

Now my question to you is, are you going to prohibit anyone including your FA's from entering the flight deck during flight since you don't trust them? Not doing so would make you somewhat of a hypocrite would it not?

As for the CAME and our so called mitigation strategies, after he asked me the requisite "how do you feel" questions the conversation went like this:

Me: How do you know I'm telling you the truth?

Him: I don't.

Me: How do you know I won't suffer a breakdown before our next chat?

Him: I don't.

Silence.........................
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

Rockie, are you still flying as an active airline pilot?
Yesterday's flight was just amaaazzzzzing, no more screwing around and begging for you to go pee.

In the germanwing case, even though the guy went to visit one or two different doctors per week, they couldn't disclosed medical or mental health issues the legislator.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Really? Going to pee without calling back was amaaazzzzzing?

What if the Germanwings Pilot didn't go to a doctor at all, and lied when the aviation doctor asked him how he was feeling? Can you conceive of a situation where someone was having dark thoughts and maybe didn't tell anybody?
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Ypilot
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

*** Sigh ***

Are you still an active airline pilot?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

That guy at germanwing was a known as a psychiatric case, everyone freaking knew!!! German doctors couldn't disclose the information because of confidentiality BS. We are not talking here about someone with anxiety and light depresion. Even the flightschool was aware during his training. Swiss air did a thorough review of this procedure. I would be much more scared about hijacks or a FA with a 3 week training than a colleague who has spent years earning his seat in a cockpit.
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Last edited by Ypilot on Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Oh yes. Are you?

You didn't answer my question about the disturbed pilot who doesn't tell anybody. Expand your thinking.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Ypilot »

Waste of time!
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