Joined this forum to get some info on FA28's for a project. (now done) Got into reading posts from some interesting people ( with a few idiots ). The question of ass kissing or commitment is interesting. I do not like to hear "I'll do it for FREE" . It just pushes a few of my older buttons. The purists do not want to pay for PPC's, they just want someone to else to pay for it and then trust them to hang around long enough.
Here is the questions!!!
Is it ok to pay for a PPC ???
Is it OK to work for FREE ???
Any ideas please post them.
This will probably me my last post under FA28 guy that job is done.
Do what you gota do !
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
-
I'd Rather Be Flying
- Rank 3
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:24 am
- Location: This island earth.
No, but people do.
No, but people do.
And sometimes those who do, ruin it for the others around the industry. I don't work for free and I won't. And thus far, I haven't paid for a PPC, and likely won't.
No, but people do.
And sometimes those who do, ruin it for the others around the industry. I don't work for free and I won't. And thus far, I haven't paid for a PPC, and likely won't.
Last edited by I'd Rather Be Flying on Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Come down, your head is in the sky, feet on the ground...come down."
Is it wrong?
Will you sleep well at night in your condo knowing you have a job even though you paid for your PPC?
I think so.
Will you get shunned by your buddies next time you invite them to the pub.
Hell yeah.
Pros, You'll get a job...
Cons, you'll lose some respect from the rampies..
It's not cool and you'll be frowned upon.. But you'll have your job..
Sell your soul to the devil?
****
As for working for free, that's even worse, imo.. Why not just sit at home and collect welfare for free??? Let the other pilots who want to make a living work?
Will you sleep well at night in your condo knowing you have a job even though you paid for your PPC?
I think so.
Will you get shunned by your buddies next time you invite them to the pub.
Hell yeah.
Pros, You'll get a job...
Cons, you'll lose some respect from the rampies..
It's not cool and you'll be frowned upon.. But you'll have your job..
Sell your soul to the devil?
****
As for working for free, that's even worse, imo.. Why not just sit at home and collect welfare for free??? Let the other pilots who want to make a living work?
Last edited by cyyz on Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
just another pilot
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1069
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:05 pm
- Location: Edmonton
Plan on fishing in your retirement?
The "Purists" you refer to expect the company creating revenue on their experience to pay for PPC standards. Human resource management is not a myth. Treat your employees with dignity, and fairly renumerate them, and the training will pay for itself.
There are exceptions to this, and those guys who take the training and run to another company without commiting a specified amount of time, do a diservice to all pilots with ethics. Also, the companies who hire them require an assessment of their business ethics as well.
There is nothing wrong with hiring only qualified PPC'd pilots who are currently unemployed. But, when you hire from another company without considering your new employees previous employment agreements, you shouldn't question anyones ethics. Also, being somewhat narrowminded, you may overlook a great many otherwise skilled aviators, who for their own specific reasons do not hold current PPC's.
And I absolutely love these operators, you know the ones who steal PPC'd guys, pay a little bit more, then bond the pilots to their prospective upgrades - you are a true testament to the Weasel family.
It is forums like this, that we can send the message that it is not ok to buy a PPC, nor is it ok to run from your obligations. In doing so, the issues of unreasonable company turnover, and paying for PPC's can be greatly reduced. IMHO.
The "Purists" you refer to expect the company creating revenue on their experience to pay for PPC standards. Human resource management is not a myth. Treat your employees with dignity, and fairly renumerate them, and the training will pay for itself.
There are exceptions to this, and those guys who take the training and run to another company without commiting a specified amount of time, do a diservice to all pilots with ethics. Also, the companies who hire them require an assessment of their business ethics as well.
There is nothing wrong with hiring only qualified PPC'd pilots who are currently unemployed. But, when you hire from another company without considering your new employees previous employment agreements, you shouldn't question anyones ethics. Also, being somewhat narrowminded, you may overlook a great many otherwise skilled aviators, who for their own specific reasons do not hold current PPC's.
And I absolutely love these operators, you know the ones who steal PPC'd guys, pay a little bit more, then bond the pilots to their prospective upgrades - you are a true testament to the Weasel family.
It is forums like this, that we can send the message that it is not ok to buy a PPC, nor is it ok to run from your obligations. In doing so, the issues of unreasonable company turnover, and paying for PPC's can be greatly reduced. IMHO.
Kind of a bogus question.
Is a training bond paying for a PPC?
Is giving your own money but being paid back paying for a PPC?
Is taking a job (AC, JAZZ, Georgian, ex Regional etc) but getting paid crap for the first yr or so paying for a PPC?
Or do you mean buying a PPC without a job and then looking for one?
Is a training bond paying for a PPC?
Is giving your own money but being paid back paying for a PPC?
Is taking a job (AC, JAZZ, Georgian, ex Regional etc) but getting paid crap for the first yr or so paying for a PPC?
Or do you mean buying a PPC without a job and then looking for one?
Pimper, not really;
Buying a PPC for the sake of having it for a future prospect just happens to be the lowest common denominator.
But your other suggestions aren't anything better.
You'll just get less nay sayers and people that disagree as you step up the plateau, but you'll always have some who'll think it's wrong..
Buying a PPC for the sake of having it for a future prospect just happens to be the lowest common denominator.
But your other suggestions aren't anything better.
You'll just get less nay sayers and people that disagree as you step up the plateau, but you'll always have some who'll think it's wrong..
Pimper
You've just added more side to the question. As far as treating people fairly it's subjective. Some peole feel unless they have all the cookies it's not fair. Just food for thought. I haven't paid for a PPC nor do I intend to but then I have choices some other do not. I've mentioned Carl Milard in the past he is I think the inventor of you pay and play. The guys that PAID and PLAYED with him are mostly flying with AC and joke about paying. Piont in the long run they got great jobs ( even if AC goes down ) and nobody cares how they got there.
You've just added more side to the question. As far as treating people fairly it's subjective. Some peole feel unless they have all the cookies it's not fair. Just food for thought. I haven't paid for a PPC nor do I intend to but then I have choices some other do not. I've mentioned Carl Milard in the past he is I think the inventor of you pay and play. The guys that PAID and PLAYED with him are mostly flying with AC and joke about paying. Piont in the long run they got great jobs ( even if AC goes down ) and nobody cares how they got there.
It is more complicated than that. Think of all the training you receive from your first flight to your recurrent check rides. At some point the company starts paying instead of you. Where should the line be drawn? If you pay for a PPC should you pay for each renewal? Should you pay for your pcc? When the company wants to upgrade you as a captain should you pay for that too? Should companies be paying for our commercial licences? Our multi-ifrs? What is the difference between paying for a multi-ifr and paying for a PPC?Is it ok to pay for a PPC ???
Is it OK to work for FREE ???
The difference is that a multi-ifr is needed for any airline / charter job (a few single VFR jobs excepted), but a ppc is specific to the airplane that the company flies. This is where i think the line should be drawn. When the training is no longer required and valid for all similar operators.
However, i know that a PPC on whatever type is required for all operators, and that it is training that can be used with other companies.
But what a company is saying to me when they want me to pay for a ppc is that they do not care if it is me or the other guy. They can charge for a ppc because there are pilots willing to do so. All the power to them but they are not going to get me flying for them. If a company wants me they can pay for their training. This helps to insure that i only work for companies that respect their employees. So far it has worked for me. Arrogant perhaps but i come from a background where businesses do what it takes to get the best possible people working for them because it makes them the most money.
So in my opinion it is ok to pay for a PPC, but i am not going to do it. If you guys want to scrap it out between yourselves paying for the privilege of making money for someone else go ahead.
Working for free just demonstrates how brainless you are.
ahramin
Got to tell you I enjoyed your coment on religion a few weeks ago. Again this brings more conditions to the flow. Just want to mention that there are over 280 companies in Canada that fly PA31's does it make sense to buy a PPC on a PA31 or not. My position is that you have to live with yourself so do hwatever makes you comfortable. I do not agree with peer presure condeming keen people sometimes called brown nosers because it's subjective. Anyway I was looking for different point of view for another project I just took on with a lot of sades of gray.
Got to tell you I enjoyed your coment on religion a few weeks ago. Again this brings more conditions to the flow. Just want to mention that there are over 280 companies in Canada that fly PA31's does it make sense to buy a PPC on a PA31 or not. My position is that you have to live with yourself so do hwatever makes you comfortable. I do not agree with peer presure condeming keen people sometimes called brown nosers because it's subjective. Anyway I was looking for different point of view for another project I just took on with a lot of sades of gray.
I'm not sure if my point came across clearly. There are different ways of paying for a PPC.
Air Canada..you get hired, then go on a flat pay for 2 (3 yrs for cruisers) making crap money. You have not signed a bond, you have not given them money, but you are paying for the PPC through low wages.
WestJet..crap pay for the first yr along with forcing pilots to invest in the company..you just payed for a PPC.
Air Georgian.. (not sure if they still do it) You get hired, you go to the bank and co-sign a 15,000 loan. You did not give them money, you owe no money unless you leave within a prescribed period to time. You make crap money for the first yr. You have just payed for a PPC.
SkyService..you get hired, you sign a 50,000 bond that lasts 3 yrs and is not pro rated. You just paid for a PPC.
JetsGo...you give them 30,000..they pay it back over 2 yrs. You just paid for a PPC.
Bum-f-u-c-k-nowhere...you have worked a ramp for 2 yrs making less then poverty wages, putting up with crap that almost no human would put up with..you then get right seat on a PA-31...you just paid for a PPC.
CYYZ had one really good point..where do you draw the line? One end of the spectrum is..you should not pay for anything including your intial training..the other end is that you would pay or be on the hook for everything your whole career.
I think this whole issue revolves around two main things. Jealousy . For some reason, most pilots think that once they have their Lic and ratings they are in some imaginary race/seniority to the top with all the others. If someone they perceive to be behind them gets in front of them, they get pissed. God given right. With the industry the way it is I see this more and more. Experience pilots who have been through all this crap for yrs that think aviation now owe's them something. They want what they had and are not willing to start over.
When people tell me that they have not payed for anything, I silently laugh. You always pay one way or another, sometimes its just more obvious.
Air Canada..you get hired, then go on a flat pay for 2 (3 yrs for cruisers) making crap money. You have not signed a bond, you have not given them money, but you are paying for the PPC through low wages.
WestJet..crap pay for the first yr along with forcing pilots to invest in the company..you just payed for a PPC.
Air Georgian.. (not sure if they still do it) You get hired, you go to the bank and co-sign a 15,000 loan. You did not give them money, you owe no money unless you leave within a prescribed period to time. You make crap money for the first yr. You have just payed for a PPC.
SkyService..you get hired, you sign a 50,000 bond that lasts 3 yrs and is not pro rated. You just paid for a PPC.
JetsGo...you give them 30,000..they pay it back over 2 yrs. You just paid for a PPC.
Bum-f-u-c-k-nowhere...you have worked a ramp for 2 yrs making less then poverty wages, putting up with crap that almost no human would put up with..you then get right seat on a PA-31...you just paid for a PPC.
CYYZ had one really good point..where do you draw the line? One end of the spectrum is..you should not pay for anything including your intial training..the other end is that you would pay or be on the hook for everything your whole career.
I think this whole issue revolves around two main things. Jealousy . For some reason, most pilots think that once they have their Lic and ratings they are in some imaginary race/seniority to the top with all the others. If someone they perceive to be behind them gets in front of them, they get pissed. God given right. With the industry the way it is I see this more and more. Experience pilots who have been through all this crap for yrs that think aviation now owe's them something. They want what they had and are not willing to start over.
When people tell me that they have not payed for anything, I silently laugh. You always pay one way or another, sometimes its just more obvious.
[quote]Is it ok to pay for a PPC ???
Is it OK to work for FREE ???
Pay for a PPC: I'll say that's depends the equipment that you're going to fly. For example : If you got experience in let's say PA 31 and your PPC is no longer valid, I don't think that is fair to pay again. If you never flown an aircraft like that before, sure is a fair think to pay for the trainning.
Work for free - NO WAY, Never do that !!! I said it before only prostitute work for free.It's a SIN !!!
Is it OK to work for FREE ???
Pay for a PPC: I'll say that's depends the equipment that you're going to fly. For example : If you got experience in let's say PA 31 and your PPC is no longer valid, I don't think that is fair to pay again. If you never flown an aircraft like that before, sure is a fair think to pay for the trainning.
Work for free - NO WAY, Never do that !!! I said it before only prostitute work for free.It's a SIN !!!
Never ever give up --- up to a point, right?
Facts:
1. Westjet does not force you to invest in them. But if you do buy their stock they sell it to you at half price (you can do this with up to %20 of your wages)
2. You do not always pay one way or another.
I have never paid for a PPC, and have never worked for cheap my first year or first anything. With my present company they trained me on the aircraft, and put me on full salary from the day before the first day i showed up. I realize that going on full salary is rare, but a probationary wage is normal whether or not the company has to spend any money on you and has nothing to do with paying for the PPC.
1. Westjet does not force you to invest in them. But if you do buy their stock they sell it to you at half price (you can do this with up to %20 of your wages)
2. You do not always pay one way or another.
I have never paid for a PPC, and have never worked for cheap my first year or first anything. With my present company they trained me on the aircraft, and put me on full salary from the day before the first day i showed up. I realize that going on full salary is rare, but a probationary wage is normal whether or not the company has to spend any money on you and has nothing to do with paying for the PPC.
Hey Ahramin:
I never paid for any PPC before, but times are changing the way taht econmy works.
I think , the company are asking for you to pay the PPC is only because they are expecting a big change in the market. A "Boom" where all the pilot will be a extinguishe being.
you know what I mean ?
I never paid for any PPC before, but times are changing the way taht econmy works.
I think , the company are asking for you to pay the PPC is only because they are expecting a big change in the market. A "Boom" where all the pilot will be a extinguishe being.
you know what I mean ?
Never ever give up --- up to a point, right?
I did not have any time on type, or a similar type. And before you ask my daddy does not own the company. In fact i did not know anyone in the company. The way they do their hiring is:
They go through the resumes, choose who they think is best, call their references, ask them to come in for a couple interviews, and hire them.
Which to my way of thinking is the best way of doing things. A past chief pilot of a BC operation once explained it best: "You pick the right people, and do what it takes to keep them happy, and they stay a long time". That company does not require you to pay for a PPC either, and does not make you work a ramp or for free either. And last year they upgraded a friend of mine to captain who no multi PIC time.
There are many companies out there who do not care about PPCs, or hours. They just want good pilots and good people. And it works (No accidents, few incidents).
They go through the resumes, choose who they think is best, call their references, ask them to come in for a couple interviews, and hire them.
Which to my way of thinking is the best way of doing things. A past chief pilot of a BC operation once explained it best: "You pick the right people, and do what it takes to keep them happy, and they stay a long time". That company does not require you to pay for a PPC either, and does not make you work a ramp or for free either. And last year they upgraded a friend of mine to captain who no multi PIC time.
There are many companies out there who do not care about PPCs, or hours. They just want good pilots and good people. And it works (No accidents, few incidents).
-
just another pilot
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1069
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:05 pm
- Location: Edmonton
Pimper. No one here has stated they have not payed for their Transport Canada required licenses/ratings in order to legally fly commercially in Canada. Progression throughout ones career often includes a certain amount of sweat equity, as you have stated. However, that is not the same as opening your wallet and physically paying currency to an operator to train you on a revenue generating machine that they operate.
So yes, we all may have paid to a certain extent, but the fixed cost of proficiency should not become a commercial pilots responsibility, or we're in deep sh*t.
So yes, we all may have paid to a certain extent, but the fixed cost of proficiency should not become a commercial pilots responsibility, or we're in deep sh*t.
Jobhunter, did you edit your post there? I seem to have responded to a changed post.
Anyway. Yes many companies have been hurt by unscrupulous pilots getting a PPC there and then jumping ship. But there are ways to prevent this without making pilots pay for training. Training bonds. Escrow. I have never been bonded but i would consider it for the right company. Escrow can be a bad idea (what if the escrow is held by the company and it goes bankrupt?)
Don't kid yourself, companies that require you to pay for a PPC are trying to improve their bottom lines, whether they are having trouble retaining people or not.
This is doubly so today because there is very little movement so companies do not have to try very hard to stop people from moving sideways. But the other day my boss asked "How are you liking things here? Everything all right?" They care and in return i care. I work hard and i do not complain unless there is something that is a real problem and that i have a solution for. So everyone is happy, and making money. It would take a lot more than an extra $500 a month to get me to quit this job.
Anyway. Yes many companies have been hurt by unscrupulous pilots getting a PPC there and then jumping ship. But there are ways to prevent this without making pilots pay for training. Training bonds. Escrow. I have never been bonded but i would consider it for the right company. Escrow can be a bad idea (what if the escrow is held by the company and it goes bankrupt?)
Don't kid yourself, companies that require you to pay for a PPC are trying to improve their bottom lines, whether they are having trouble retaining people or not.
This is doubly so today because there is very little movement so companies do not have to try very hard to stop people from moving sideways. But the other day my boss asked "How are you liking things here? Everything all right?" They care and in return i care. I work hard and i do not complain unless there is something that is a real problem and that i have a solution for. So everyone is happy, and making money. It would take a lot more than an extra $500 a month to get me to quit this job.
ahramin
Your have a point so we as pilots are the same or worse than prostitutes because we allow ourselves to be treated in the same manner. Yes I'm generalizing but as long as one person says YES we all have a problem.
I have a good friend in the construction business who says " I want to kill the first person who gave a FREE quote." Now everybody want it for free.
Let's remember this is a discussion so the more ideas the better.
Your have a point so we as pilots are the same or worse than prostitutes because we allow ourselves to be treated in the same manner. Yes I'm generalizing but as long as one person says YES we all have a problem.
I have a good friend in the construction business who says " I want to kill the first person who gave a FREE quote." Now everybody want it for free.
Let's remember this is a discussion so the more ideas the better.
Ahramon: Sorry I really edit one question and posted another one, my mystaque.
FA 28: You are right, prostitute get paid for their work.
Whatever , what I meant is , the guy that work for free doesn't deserve any respect not even a future proposal for a paid job.
FA 28: You are right, prostitute get paid for their work.
Whatever , what I meant is , the guy that work for free doesn't deserve any respect not even a future proposal for a paid job.
Never ever give up --- up to a point, right?
jobhunter quote:
"Pay for a PPC: I'll say that's depends the equipment that you're going to fly. For example : If you got experience in let's say PA 31 and your PPC is no longer valid, I don't think that is fair to pay again. If you never flown an aircraft like that before, sure is a fair think to pay for the trainning."
Not sure if I am reading your post correctly jobhunter, but are you saying that because a guy/girl may not have any experience on type they should have to pay for the training???
"Pay for a PPC: I'll say that's depends the equipment that you're going to fly. For example : If you got experience in let's say PA 31 and your PPC is no longer valid, I don't think that is fair to pay again. If you never flown an aircraft like that before, sure is a fair think to pay for the trainning."
Not sure if I am reading your post correctly jobhunter, but are you saying that because a guy/girl may not have any experience on type they should have to pay for the training???
-
groundtoflightdeck
- Rank 6
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:56 pm
