German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

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Old fella
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#101 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:56 am

Lots of to and fro,back and forth on this issue, mostly from the airline pilot community and it makes for interesting reading. Since I am not an airline pilot but a frequent user of airline services let me ask if there ever was a straw vote amongst the passengers community on this issue what would be the outcome. I would suggest most of us passengers would have no difficulty and would think it is a very good idea to have an FA in the cockpit while a pilot absences him/her self from duties for a bathroom visit or whatever. Just saying.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#102 Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:07 am

The hypocrisy of this is that if TC mandated a technical means to guarantee the other pilot access to the cockpit every one of these children would applaud the measure. But because the simplest and cheapest solution wears a flight attendant uniform they lose their egotistical minds and shut it down.

It's embarrassing.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#103 Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:42 am

you're presumptions are off rockie. you're wrong about what I think.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#104 Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:58 am

altiplano wrote:you're presumptions are off rockie. you're wrong about what I think.
I doubt it. Answer my question about barring everyone from the flight deck.

While you're at it would you support a technical method to guarantee pilots access to the flight deck?

I would. I'll support any measure that prevents me (or the FO) from getting locked out of the flight deck for any reason, and I don't give a rat's ass if that measure happens to wear a flight attendant uniform.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#105 Post by Impact » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:55 am

The only one who seems to be losing their shit over this is you, Rockie.

Once again, we now have a safer system in place. The scenario where an F/A is left alone in the flight deck with a single pilot at the controls, is now a thing of the past, thankfully. The Germans, Swiss, and now the Canadians have recognized that this is the safest course of action. Hopefully in the near future, more ICAO member states will adopt this rational and pragmatic approach as well.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#106 Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:19 am

Impact wrote:The only one who seems to be losing their shit over this is you, Rockie.

Once again, we now have a safer system in place. The scenario where an F/A is left alone in the flight deck with a single pilot at the controls, is now a thing of the past, thankfully. The Germans, Swiss, and now the Canadians have recognized that this is the safest course of action. Hopefully in the near future, more ICAO member states will adopt this rational and pragmatic approach as well.
It seems you think the FA's are a threat. Why don't you try and answer my question since literally nobody else seems capable?

Bar everyone permanently from the flight deck in the name of security?

No BS about single pilot either, they're a threat or they are not. If they are why are we giving them access to the flight deck?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#107 Post by Impact » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:24 am

Rockie wrote:
While you're at it would you support a technical method to guarantee pilots access to the flight deck?

I would.....
Now you're finally on the right track. It's taken you awhile to get to this point, so not all hope is lost.

I too would support a technical option to enter the flight deck, however, knowledge of its use would need to be limited to pilots only. To give an F/A access to this "technical solution" would once again introduce another threat.

I need to reiterate to you, once again, that I do not distrust F/A's.....I only have a higher trust in pilots in general.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#108 Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:32 am

Get it through your thick head.

I never said that flight attendants were a significantly measurable threat.
I don't think they should be barred.
I would possibly support a technical means depending on what it was...

I didn't support the Observer 2 in the FD rule because it did not measurably improve safety.
It was ineffective.
It didn't prevent one accident.
It didn't cause one accident.
Because these events are so remotely improbable.
and statistically, with humans being humans...
the ultra rare circumstance of someone going crazy/time on the flight deck is pretty equal, it doesn't matter what your position is...

It was an overreaction that accomplished nothing and it was a significant inconvenience for everyone involved.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#109 Post by DrSpaceman » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:41 am

I'll bite too.

I have no issues with occasional visits from FAs to my flight deck. The key word here is occasional. I don't distrust them but like the previous poster said, I trust my fellow pilots a lot more. All of them have been through a decade of other flying experience (with annual medicals and a lot more RAIC checks and renewals. A lot of them have also had police background checks from previous employers.)

Now I don't mind the FA coming in, but logically who has been more vetted? Who is more trustworthy?

My biggest scare in the past year has been if I had to do an emergency descent while a fresh out of training FA is sitting alone behind me. What would be the reaction? The measure taught them to be suspicious of us while they're there. What if he/she decides to be a hero and use that axe next to her?

I would definitely support a technical measure though. Biometrics maybe?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#110 Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:57 am

Ok. So you think a technical means is important enough to pursue, but you don't think FA's would be an effective door opener and you don't trust them to be in the cockpit anyway except for any reason other than complying with this rule.

Does that about sum up the deep thinking here?

It's amazing to me that otherwise intelligent people can't see the glaring contradictions in their position. You see the benefit of a technical means to open the door but can't see the benefit of a human being doing it. FA's are an unacceptable threat for the 2 minutes it takes you to go to the lav, but not for any other reason including commuting in the jumpseat for the entire flight.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#111 Post by Impact » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:52 am

Rockie, as far as I can see, nobody has claimed that an F/A is an ineffective means of opening the flight deck door. You seem to be caught up in that circular argument with yourself. I'm not sure why, but whatever floats your boat...

Nobody has said we need to implement a wholesale ban of F/A's in the flight deck. Only you have said as much, which is irrational to say the least. This is not a black and white issue. It's not only a matter of degree, but a rational measured approach in an effort to reduce risk. Notice that I used the word "reduce"? I use it in the same context when I say "In general, I would trust a pilot more than I do an F/A".

Please stop your black and white approach to this debate, as it does nothing but make you look foolish. I'm sure you don't approach flavouring your meal with a "it's either a full salt shaker or no salt at all" attitude, so I'd appreciate it if you take a more balanced approach to this safety related issue. You stomping your feet and screaming at the the top of your lungs "what's wrong with you f***ing people?" won't do anything but decrease your credibility.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#112 Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:41 pm

Lots of people say the FA's in the cockpit are an ineffective measure, and since their only function up there is to open the door the comment can only refer to that. And unfortunately for you it is black and white when it comes to the FA's being a threat. If they're an unacceptable risk for 2 minutes for a bathroom break they're an unacceptable risk for any 2 minutes regardless of the reason. Unless you're trying to suggest bathroom breaks brings out some hostility that isn't there when they bring you coffee or commuting. They're a threat or not, there's no grey zone.

Question, you trust pilots more for what exactly? Are they naturally more resistant to mental illness than FA's are?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#113 Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:07 pm

Rockie you're carrying on.

I don't think you even understand what anyone else is saying because you are so fixated on something else.

this just came to my feed:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/petrasorge/thi ... .us694Y7yn

I don't know the accuracy or the implications, but it's interesting as it relates to this case anyway...
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#114 Post by Impact » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:10 pm

Lots of people say the FA's in the cockpit are an ineffective measure, and since their only function up there is to open the door the comment can only refer to that.
Interesting. Lots of people are saying that F/A's are ineffective at opening the flight deck door in this thread? Care to show us who, and in which post?
And unfortunately for you it is black and white when it comes to the FA's being a threat.
Nope. There's a lot of balance to what I've stated, and from what I've seen, it is only you who is advocating for a complete ban of F/A's in the flight deck. That seems quite excessive in my opinion, but once again, if it floats your boat....
They're a threat or not, there's no grey zone.
There you go again with that black and white thinking. The entire premise is to increase safety by reducing threats. An F/A alone in the flight deck with only one pilot at the controls is more of a threat than an F/A in there with two pilots at the controls. It's about as obvious as obvious can be, except for you of course.
Are they naturally more resistant to mental illness than FA's are?
Since I'm neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist, I can't answer that question, however I'm quite sure the Germans, Swiss, and Canadians have consulted with many experts in the mental health profession. It would seem that good sound advice has been heeded by the above mentioned regulatory bodies. We can all agree that when Raitt imposed the 2 person rule, most of what drove that regulatory change was a function of political optics. She needed to be seen as doing something....anything.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#115 Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:32 pm

Nothing inferred, but do FAs do medicals every year? Maybe a company medical, but nothing required...
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#116 Post by Ypilot » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:08 pm

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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#117 Post by Impact » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:38 pm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24754205

Enlightening study. The difference between pilots and F/As with regards to mental health.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#118 Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:43 am

Altiplano said the measure was ineffective on this very page, and it's one of the usual straws people grasp at in the campaign to get rid of the rule. I hear it constantly. Ineffective at what, opening a door?

FA's in the cockpit has never been an issue up until 2 years ago. Nobody complained. Nobody filed safety reports. Nobody ever denied them entry. Nobody minded them commuting, or just coming up for a chat while sitting there bored in cruise. I've been flying for decades and never heard of a single case.

Over the last 2 years nobody complained if an FA came up for any reason whatsoever, except for a bathroom break. In fact yesterday the in charge was in and out probably 5-6 times and not a single expression of concern from the other guy, although he did allow how nice it was not to have to call back for the bathroom. Where's the concern for safety?

From now on nobody will ever complain. Nobody will file safety reports. Nobody will bar FA's from the flight deck. Nobody will deny commuters because of security concerns. You'll all be saying how much you enjoy not being babysat and don't have to endure the unbearable inconvenience of having to call back to go to the bathroom. The hypocrisy is mind numbing.

I know all this because I experience it every day. Every flight I've done since the 16th I hear the same heartfelt expressions of relief, but not at how much safer you all feel of course. You all know that's a crock. I don't know who you guys think you're bullshitting here, probably yourselves to some degree, but it isn't working on me.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#119 Post by altiplano » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:31 am

Ineffective because there isn't anything to be effective against! Ineffective at improving safety. Ineffective at stopping nothing.

Tits on a bull.

The chance of a problem with a pilot is so remote, and the chance of a risk being posed by the Observer is similarly as remote. Any perceived benefit of an observer being there is offset by the more or less equal likelihood of them being the problem.

100,000+ flights a day.
40,000,000 flights a year.
400,000,000 flights this past decade.

and you are caught up on maybe a couple of those flights that had problems...

How many tire failures were there in that period? should we do new rubber every flight?

How many fuel emergencies? should we mandate more fuel?

How many ATC mistakes? Pilot errors? runway overruns?

We could go on and on... All of those are far far far more common than your concerns here, but we accept that generally the system we have in place effectively mitigates the risks associated with them. Clearly the system we have in place effectively mitigates risk on the flightdeck because planes aren't being driven into the ground on purpose on a regular basis... in fact they seem to be driven into the ground by accident far more often (cfit)... that's a bigger fish that deserves our attention and resources.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#120 Post by altiplano » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:00 am

Impact wrote:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24754205

Enlightening study. The difference between pilots and F/As with regards to mental health.
For those that don't read it...

29.8 % of flight attendants in study diagnosed with common mental disorders.

vs.

6.7 % of pilots.

"Common mental disorders" is broad and could be anything from OCD to psychotic issues to personally disorders to depression and more...
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#121 Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:24 am

I disagree that there isn't anything to mitigate against. Hundreds of families of dead people (really, look it up) would also vehemently disagree. But since you think there's nothing to mitigate against, why would you bother supporting a technical means guaranteeing pilots access?

And if you believe 30% of flight attendants have some sort of mental disorder shouldn't you be leading the charge to have them banned from the cockpit?

You're full of it altiplano. They're a risk but they're not. The measure is useless and you deny the reason for it yet you support another means of doing the same thing. This bothered you for reasons you lack the intestinal fortitude to admit. You and everybody else making up BS excuses to hide behind.

You're forgetting that I work with you guys. I listen to how you bitch about this rule day in, day out, week in, week out. Don't try and bullshit me.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#122 Post by altiplano » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:38 pm

I'm full of it? At least I don't have reading and comprehension issues.

I only read the report that was posted, I didn't say I believed flight attendants are a risk, I said the opposite.

I have said over and over the risk is so small that it is practically zero. I said it's a human condition and can be equally as likely to affect pilots as observers and thus offsets any benefit that you may perceive. I said the risk is so low there is no point to put someone there to do nothing.

You on the other hand grasp at a narrative only you are on. You inaccurately attribute statements out of context.

I'll be sure to tell everyone at work I encounter moving forward what I think and you can tell me what a bitch I am.

In the mean time go learn to read @$$hole.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#123 Post by Impact » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:03 pm

I think we can safely say that after all of Rockie's straw man arguments, false premises, ad hominem attacks, and loaded questions, he has clearly lost the debate.

When one resorts to saying that everyone is making up bullshit excuses, and that everyone is full of bullshit, the argument is over for all intents and purposes.

Rockie, try not to get too spooled up over the next three to six months while your co-workers bathe in the freedom of this new regulatory change.

Peace, out.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#124 Post by Ypilot » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:58 pm

IMG_2794.JPG
IMG_2794.JPG (35.93 KiB) Viewed 2228 times




^^^^
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#125 Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:13 pm

"Bathe in the freedom from this regulatory change"

That about sums up what babies you guys have been over this. You poor dears...

It's obvious I know something you don't, and it's that this isn't a trust issue. It's about an unforeseen flaw in the system that allows someone with mental health issues to lock themselves alone in the cockpit, and there's not a damn thing those on the victim side of the door can do about it. It's not a hypothetical and don't talk about probabilities, it's already happened several times and you are delusional if you don't think it will happen again

So unlike you I recognize the need to do something to ensure access to the cockpit in those circumstances. I know it's not about me. My professional pride and masculinity wasn't wounded by the rule, and I didn't feel the need to run crying off to mommy because the bad man in Ottawa is making me ask permission to go the the washroom.

It's not about me...and believe or not it's not about you.
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