PML 2.0

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

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Black_Tusk
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Black_Tusk »

Actually, no. I'm sure there are loads of Seneca grads who flowed through but the Confed diploma seems to be enough these days.
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mantogasrsrwy
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

Black_Tusk wrote:
North Shore wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:
Add an inbound flight that had some "westjet delay vectors" or flow and now the outbound flight is late.
WTH is a 'westjet delay vector' :?:

It's when you're following in Westjet on arrival and they transition at 230-250kts slowing down everyone behind them doing 290kts+.
So you are flying a 999 cost index while Westjet is flying slower than zero? Wow, it's pretty rare I see either of those. The RJ must be a sleek machine if it's coming down efficiently at 290Kts+
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Black_Tusk
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Black_Tusk »

mantogasrsrwy wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:
North Shore wrote:
WTH is a 'westjet delay vector' :?:

It's when you're following in Westjet on arrival and they transition at 230-250kts slowing down everyone behind them doing 290kts+.
So you are flying a 999 cost index while Westjet is flying slower than zero? Wow, it's pretty rare I see either of those. The RJ must be a sleek machine if it's coming down efficiently at 290Kts+
SOP is idle descent at 4*/290kts.
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mbav8r
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by mbav8r »

Yep, SOP .74/290 and I've been slowed to 250 by ATC and they cleared WJ ahead to speed up to 250, we complied and somehow on the same track we were still closing the gap, ATC asked WJ to confirm they were doing 250 and they responded "affirmative", they seemed to be lying because we were slowed even further, 230 and guess what the gap remained constant from that point on.
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Last edited by mbav8r on Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Boreas
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Boreas »

I'm definetly not part of team-teal, but I love how WestJet is being bashed on a thread about the PML. Haha, 'they lied'. So Jazz!

What was the wind gradient during that descent, mbav8r?
How quickly did you slow to 250?
What was the vertical separation?
How much of TAS difference was there?
Was the controller new by any chance?
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flyinhigh
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by flyinhigh »

All AC/Jazz drivers bitch about WestJets descent being so slow. Guess what, it's SOP and saves a shit ton in fuel.

Just because your SOP is .74/290 doesn't mean it's right. I flew the RJ for 5 years and know first hand it's not an effiecient descent profile. The big difference is that Jazz management gets paid when the plane leaves and arrives, they could care less about costs such as fuel.
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Tail-Chaser
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Tail-Chaser »

flyinhigh wrote:All AC/Jazz drivers bitch about WestJets descent being so slow. Guess what, it's SOP and saves a shit ton in fuel.

Just because your SOP is .74/290 doesn't mean it's right. I flew the RJ for 5 years and know first hand it's not an effiecient descent profile. The big difference is that Jazz management gets paid when the plane leaves and arrives, they could care less about costs such as fuel.
In my experience it's usually a power off descent hovering closer to .79/320. If it's done right, you're idle from TOD to the first major restriction, like EGRET on the GRIZZ, or when you're starting the base turn for the 8's on the CANUK. Seems pretty efficient, but if you've got a different take I'd love to hear it.

Course ATC instructions can throw all that planning out the window though.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Black_Tusk »

Tail-Chaser wrote:
flyinhigh wrote:All AC/Jazz drivers bitch about WestJets descent being so slow. Guess what, it's SOP and saves a shit ton in fuel.

Just because your SOP is .74/290 doesn't mean it's right. I flew the RJ for 5 years and know first hand it's not an effiecient descent profile. The big difference is that Jazz management gets paid when the plane leaves and arrives, they could care less about costs such as fuel.
In my experience it's usually a power off descent hovering closer to .79/320. If it's done right, you're idle from TOD to the first major restriction, like EGRET on the GRIZZ, or when you're starting the base turn for the 8's on the CANUK. Seems pretty efficient, but if you've got a different take I'd love to hear it.

Course ATC instructions can throw all that planning out the window though.
I agree with your post. If you're good and plan the vertical speed to land around 1.6ish when you need to transition to 250kts you can keep it idle off even longer.
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dialdriver
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by dialdriver »

How come I have to ride the brakes whenever I taxi behind Jazz?
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Black_Tusk
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Black_Tusk »

dialdriver wrote:How come I have to ride the brakes whenever I taxi behind Jazz?
Maybe you taxi too fast? I dunno.. most I fly with taxi at a reasonable and safe speed.
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atphat
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by atphat »

dialdriver wrote:How come I have to ride the brakes whenever I taxi behind Jazz?
This has to be the first time anyone has ever complained Jazz taxis too slow. If your riding the brakes behind a Jazz aircraft you must be scaring the hell out of your passengers.
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mbav8r
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by mbav8r »

Boreas wrote:I'm definetly not part of team-teal, but I love how WestJet is being bashed on a thread about the PML. Haha, 'they lied'. So Jazz!

What was the wind gradient during that descent, mbav8r?
How quickly did you slow to 250?
What was the vertical separation?
How much of TAS difference was there?
Was the controller new by any chance?
I edited my post to reflect that it was my opinion they were lying, to answer your questions, there was no doubt in our minds they didn't speed up but, how quickly we slowed is irrelevant because the gap was closing while we were at 250, same arrival we stepped down basically 2000 feet above them the whole way. We could've overtaken them quite easily, we started out 15 miles back and at 5 miles that's when we were slowed to 230.
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mbav8r
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by mbav8r »

flyinhigh wrote:All AC/Jazz drivers bitch about WestJets descent being so slow. Guess what, it's SOP and saves a shit ton in fuel.

Just because your SOP is .74/290 doesn't mean it's right. I flew the RJ for 5 years and know first hand it's not an effiecient descent profile. The big difference is that Jazz management gets paid when the plane leaves and arrives, they could care less about costs such as fuel.
Your SOP is your SOP, we are flying our SOP and getting delays behind you, however if my assumptions are correct and a couple of your pilots did not increase their speed as per ATCs request, why not say unable and we could have been vectored around them. I could care less what speed you're flying but don't lie about it.
Also, we are all paid for our on time performance and with tight turns a 10 min delay will affect more than just the one flight. It's also not true they could care less about fuel, we fly a cost index which balances fuel cost among other things but yes some big bonuses are handed out for performance.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Black_Tusk »

mbav8r wrote:
Boreas wrote:I'm definetly not part of team-teal, but I love how WestJet is being bashed on a thread about the PML. Haha, 'they lied'. So Jazz!

What was the wind gradient during that descent, mbav8r?
How quickly did you slow to 250?
What was the vertical separation?
How much of TAS difference was there?
Was the controller new by any chance?
I edited my post to reflect that it was my opinion they were lying, to answer your questions, there was no doubt in our minds they didn't speed up but, how quickly we slowed is irrelevant because the gap was closing while we were at 250, same arrival we stepped down basically 2000 feet above them the whole way. We could've overtaken them quite easily, we started out 15 miles back and at 5 miles that's when we were slowed to 230.
I can count on numerous hands the amount of times this has happened while I've been flying into YVR. 2000 foot step downs etc, then a vector off, back on etc... and still gaining. Then an eventual slow to 230-250kts. Now a nice planned power off decent becomes a power on descent.
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fish4life
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by fish4life »

atphat wrote:
dialdriver wrote:How come I have to ride the brakes whenever I taxi behind Jazz?
This has to be the first time anyone has ever complained Jazz taxis too slow. If your riding the brakes behind a Jazz aircraft you must be scaring the hell out of your passengers.
I've personally heard a YYZ controller and Jazz pilot get into an argument about how slow he was taxing so some people probably taxi and different speeds.
As for speeds if one is flying idle that doesn't necessarily mean it is efficient, although SOP is SOP if the company wants something done then they probably have a reason for it. Flying faster than the best L/D ratio though is less efficient.
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dialdriver
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by dialdriver »

atphat wrote:
dialdriver wrote:How come I have to ride the brakes whenever I taxi behind Jazz?
This has to be the first time anyone has ever complained Jazz taxis too slow. If your riding the brakes behind a Jazz aircraft you must be scaring the hell out of your passengers.
I said ride the brakes, not stomp on them. It's the only way I can keep from running into the Jazz guy I am stuck following.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by Black_Tusk »

dialdriver wrote:
atphat wrote:
dialdriver wrote:How come I have to ride the brakes whenever I taxi behind Jazz?
This has to be the first time anyone has ever complained Jazz taxis too slow. If your riding the brakes behind a Jazz aircraft you must be scaring the hell out of your passengers.
I said ride the brakes, not stomp on them. It's the only way I can keep from running into the Jazz guy I am stuck following.
Now you know how it feels to be stuck behind a slow aircraft.
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pilotsmack89
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by pilotsmack89 »

Black_Tusk wrote:
dialdriver wrote:
atphat wrote:
This has to be the first time anyone has ever complained Jazz taxis too slow. If your riding the brakes behind a Jazz aircraft you must be scaring the hell out of your passengers.
I said ride the brakes, not stomp on them. It's the only way I can keep from running into the Jazz guy I am stuck following.
Now you know how it feels to be stuck behind a slow aircraft.
Ha!
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goingnowherefast
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by goingnowherefast »

This has got to be the most tedious thread drift in history.
"Oh, WJ made me slow down"
"Well Jazz made me slow down"
My lord your lives must be boring if you complain about such menial shit.
So how about PML 2.0?
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checkremarks
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Re: PML 2.0

Post by checkremarks »

What we know so far is that AC has planned a GS in July, September, October and November. No GS in December. Also, AC is finalising a second GS in October which will lead to 5 by end of year of 20 each. 270 Jazz Pilots on the FPML and they are planning on taking 12 FPML per GS, however, this will be interesting to see as there are around 50 PML Deferrals still to go by January of next year. Also, there are currently 142 vacancies at AC just on the Airbus, just in YYZ. We just need to be patient and enjoy your time at Jazz!
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