Northern Air Carriers Feeling the Pinch.

[Instructor_Mike]

Perhaps many executives can't see the forest for the trees. There's no pilot shortage until we have to cancel a flight because of a shortage of pilots. I'm pretty sure that's the approach my company is taking.

Thats pretty much the case. Nobody in management at present has ever seen such a thing happen and they have their heads buried in the sand.

This is happening in the north. On an anecdotal level I can say that the company I work for has cancelled or not taken charters because we are lacking captains. We have 5 airplanes on the line but only 3 captains some days. We hired a bunch of FOs hoping to train them to be captains but they simply didn't have the experience and that takes time. We are finally catching up but Jazz, Porter, Encore, Georgian and so on are like giant vacuums sucking the pilots out of the company.

I've had Jazz flights cancelled because they didn't have a crew as well.

[Rupert_Pupkin]

Perhaps many executives can't see the forest for the trees. There's no pilot shortage until we have to cancel a flight because of a shortage of pilots. I'm pretty sure that's the approach my company is taking.

Thats pretty much the case. Nobody in management at present has ever seen such a thing happen and they have their heads buried in the sand.

This is happening in the north. On an anecdotal level I can say that the company I work for has cancelled or not taken charters because we are lacking captains. We have 5 airplanes on the line but only 3 captains some days. We hired a bunch of FOs hoping to train them to be captains but they simply didn't have the experience and that takes time. We are finally catching up but Jazz, Porter, Encore, Georgian and so on are like giant vacuums sucking the pilots out of the company.

I've had Jazz flights cancelled because they didn't have a crew as well.

Seems like cancelled flights due to lack of crews is something that will be happening all over the place over the next few years

[180]

Jim Heidema from Northwestern Air Lease says he pays his pilots "very well". Anyone care to comment on Jim's definition of very well? Just curious...

[leftoftrack]

He pays $500

[RatherBeFlying]

The European air carriers have been training their own from ab initio for quite some time.

As flying and housing gets more expensive while wages stagnate, the operators will eventually have to emulate the Europeans.

[co-joe]

The European air carriers have been training their own from ab initio for quite some time.

As flying and housing gets more expensive while wages stagnate, the operators will eventually have to emulate the Europeans.

Maybe eventually, but I'm betting that the average pilot stuck in a bond is sitting on a 12k hit right now, if Jazz offered a 12K as signing bonus their problems would abate slightly.

Long term if they offered more like 30K signing bonuses, a lot of people who are looking at the ratio of student loans, to job prospect might be swayed from other post secondary options towards aviation. Especially if there was a guaranteed job at the end.

[FOD_Vacuum]

If Jazz, Encore and Porter didn't offer such a low start pay and no signing bonuses for more experienced pilots, they can continue to scope the bottom of the barrel for those 1000 TT guys. I myself do not agree moving to the regionals because of their low starting pay and relocation costs to a bigger and more expensive city. I am a 3000 TT young guy with over 1700 MPIC and would be a prime candidate for the airlines. But I refuse to budge until they realize that the current contracts and low pay/medium to high workload per month change for the better. I find it pittyful that regionals, as well as their pilots, say that there is okay money to be made if you work extra credits etc, but what life do you have after those extra days working? Not a great one IMHO. I have seen many of my colleagues who moved on struggle to make ends meet.

Northern operators need to understand that if they want to employ new pilots, let alone keep the current ones they have, they need to come up with sign up bonuses, increased salary and/or offer a balanced work life relationship, because this is where our industry is at now. Two 703 operators are doing it right by offering a 85k and 100k pay packages respectively for rotational medevac captains. Other companies need to acknowledge this and follow suit if they want to attract the right experienced guys who will do the job safely with their wealth of knowledge acquired over the years. Times are changing, so better saddle up guys!

[confusedalot]

Hey don't get me wrong, the more the money, the better it is.

Two questions;

1-What is an appropriate starting salary for a regional airline, and what is the appropriate starting salary for a "major" airline?

2-Could you associate names to the 703 rotational operators that pay 85K and 100K for operating a light aircraft?

Times are changing alright. I missed the boat because my year of birth was not quite in line with the stars.........

[fish4life]

Perimeter would be 100k for medevac cpt now

[confusedalot]

Thanks.

[Diadem]

Northern Air Charter was offering 85k, and whoever is running medevacs out of YMM was offering 100000k. The ads are probably still up.

[marakii]

If Jazz, Encore and Porter didn't offer such a low start pay and no signing bonuses for more experienced pilots, they can continue to scope the bottom of the barrel for those 1000 TT guys. I myself do not agree moving to the regionals because of their low starting pay and relocation costs to a bigger and more expensive city. I am a 3000 TT young guy with over 1700 MPIC and would be a prime candidate for the airlines. But I refuse to budge until they realize that the current contracts and low pay/medium to high workload per month change for the better. I find it pittyful that regionals, as well as their pilots, say that there is okay money to be made if you work extra credits etc, but what life do you have after those extra days working? Not a great one IMHO. I have seen many of my colleagues who moved on struggle to make ends meet.

Northern operators need to understand that if they want to employ new pilots, let alone keep the current ones they have, they need to come up with sign up bonuses, increased salary and/or offer a balanced work life relationship, because this is where our industry is at now. Two 703 operators are doing it right by offering a 85k and 100k pay packages respectively for rotational medevac captains. Other companies need to acknowledge this and follow suit if they want to attract the right experienced guys who will do the job safely with their wealth of knowledge acquired over the years. Times are changing, so better saddle up guys!

Do you think porter or jazz within the next couple of years might hire guys with around 1000 TT as I've heard porter is losing guys to AC.

[flyingcanuck]

Less than 1000 TT..... 1000 is what Porter wants, but some have got on with a bit less, and Jazz is hiring people with less than that ~750 hrs from what I've heard.

[confusedalot]

Northern Air Charter was offering 85k, and whoever is running medevacs out of YMM was offering 100000k. The ads are probably still up.

Thanks again.

[cncpc]

Jim Heidema from Northwestern Air Lease says he pays his pilots "very well". Anyone care to comment on Jim's definition of very well? Just curious...

NWAL's pilots are paid very well.

Jetstream captains run close to the 100 grand line, some above. FO's used to be in the 50 60 range there. Not sure what it's like now with the route cutbacks since early 2015.

Not just paid well, but right in the pipe for moving up to Encore and Jazz. I've heard some 1500 hour FO's with minimal PIC going to the majors.

[Black_Tusk]

Not just paid well, but right in the pipe for moving up to Encore and Jazz. I've heard some 1500 hour FO's with minimal PIC going to the majors.

If my majors you mean AC or WJ, name one.

[cncpc]

Not just paid well, but right in the pipe for moving up to Encore and Jazz. I've heard some 1500 hour FO's with minimal PIC going to the majors.

If my majors you mean AC or WJ, name one.

Both. To their turboprop operations.

[FOD_Vacuum]

Hey don't get me wrong, the more the money, the better it is.

Two questions;

1-What is an appropriate starting salary for a regional airline, and what is the appropriate starting salary for a "major" airline?

2-Could you associate names to the 703 rotational operators that pay 85K and 100K for operating a light aircraft?

Times are changing alright. I missed the boat because my year of birth was not quite in line with the stars.........

Answers:

1:An appropriate starting salary for a regional FO living in an expensive city and paying off student debt should be $60k minimum, NOT including overtime over 85 hours or per diems. For an airline, you have at least proven you are very well established and able to at least handle a big bird, and judging of what and who you are flying, it should be start at 80k minimum for FO.

2: NAC and ACA. For NAC, it was out of Peace River with no commuting available and only 7 on 7 off with the possibility of 10 on and 10 off but no guarantee you will get home at end of rotation which is a no no for me. They really would need to include confirmed travel if it was up to me since I would never live up North or relocate up there anymore. For ACA, they managed to find people from within the company for their new YMM start up base. Too bad. Also no travel, but at least it was in YMM with paid housing and airlines fly in and out of YMM making commuting easy.

It is just crazy how Jazz is taking 750 hour pilots, yet some 500-750 hour guys I have trained and see try their ride up North in the bush have difficulties with it, which only leads to one conclusion: are the 750 hr pilots really "safe" with enough life experience under their belt to really understand what it is that these regionals are asking you to do in terms of risk, and for that low of a pay? I mean come on. I have recently heard Air Canada is also taking in new recruits with little experience from Seneca...do we need to talk about the AC incident the other day at SFO when they almost landed on the taxiway? I don't know who the pilots were, but I'm sure thinking it wasn't a 30 year "professional" veteran at the controls...

[confusedalot]

Thanks once more.

It would certainly be good to see and I agree the job deserves good pay, so once again don't get me wrong. Since I am out of the game on the other end and knowing what sort of start pay was in vogue, for the last 40 years anyway, this would be about a 20% hike in inflation adjusted dollars, so, since timing and circumstances are everything, it just may happen.

Not sure I want to lay blame for events solely on lack of experience though, even the best are not infallible. (I was not the best, just plain lucky I guess )

[dhc#]

Hey don't get me wrong, the more the money, the better it is.

Two questions;

1-What is an appropriate starting salary for a regional airline, and what is the appropriate starting salary for a "major" airline?

2-Could you associate names to the 703 rotational operators that pay 85K and 100K for operating a light aircraft?

Times are changing alright. I missed the boat because my year of birth was not quite in line with the stars.........

Answers:

1:An appropriate starting salary for a regional FO living in an expensive city and paying off student debt should be $60k minimum, NOT including overtime over 85 hours or per diems. For an airline, you have at least proven you are very well established and able to at least handle a big bird, and judging of what and who you are flying, it should be start at 80k minimum for FO.

2: NAC and ACA. For NAC, it was out of Peace River with no commuting available and only 7 on 7 off with the possibility of 10 on and 10 off but no guarantee you will get home at end of rotation which is a no no for me. They really would need to include confirmed travel if it was up to me since I would never live up North or relocate up there anymore. For ACA, they managed to find people from within the company for their new YMM start up base. Too bad. Also no travel, but at least it was in YMM with paid housing and airlines fly in and out of YMM making commuting easy.

It is just crazy how Jazz is taking 750 hour pilots, yet some 500-750 hour guys I have trained and see try their ride up North in the bush have difficulties with it, which only leads to one conclusion: are the 750 hr pilots really "safe" with enough life experience under their belt to really understand what it is that these regionals are asking you to do in terms of risk, and for that low of a pay? I mean come on. I have recently heard Air Canada is also taking in new recruits with little experience from Seneca...do we need to talk about the AC incident the other day at SFO when they almost landed on the taxiway? I don't know who the pilots were, but I'm sure thinking it wasn't a 30 year "professional" veteran at the controls...

Would be interesting to know the actual failure rates on initial rides at the regionals these days....

[bobcaygeon]

I bet you it isn't that high. The Regionals always have spent a large amount of resources into training their new hires. Jazz puts in a lot of resources.
I could easily see how pilots who have trouble learning at 703 carrier could do it at Jazz. Few 703 or even some 704 operators spend the significant resources that will now be required. Some do.
Look how much "on-wing" training still exists.

[MrWings]

Answers:

1:An appropriate starting salary for a regional FO living in an expensive city and paying off student debt should be $60k minimum, NOT including overtime over 85 hours or per diems. For an airline, you have at least proven you are very well established and able to at least handle a big bird, and judging of what and who you are flying, it should be start at 80k minimum for FO.

2: NAC and ACA. For NAC, it was out of Peace River with no commuting available and only 7 on 7 off with the possibility of 10 on and 10 off but no guarantee you will get home at end of rotation which is a no no for me. They really would need to include confirmed travel if it was up to me since I would never live up North or relocate up there anymore. For ACA, they managed to find people from within the company for their new YMM start up base. Too bad. Also no travel, but at least it was in YMM with paid housing and airlines fly in and out of YMM making commuting easy.

It is just crazy how Jazz is taking 750 hour pilots, yet some 500-750 hour guys I have trained and see try their ride up North in the bush have difficulties with it, which only leads to one conclusion: are the 750 hr pilots really "safe" with enough life experience under their belt to really understand what it is that these regionals are asking you to do in terms of risk, and for that low of a pay? I mean come on. I have recently heard Air Canada is also taking in new recruits with little experience from Seneca...do we need to talk about the AC incident the other day at SFO when they almost landed on the taxiway? I don't know who the pilots were, but I'm sure thinking it wasn't a 30 year "professional" veteran at the controls...

Curious, what salary and equipment are you flying now?

[Rupert_Pupkin]

If Jazz, Encore and Porter didn't offer such a low start pay and no signing bonuses for more experienced pilots, they can continue to scope the bottom of the barrel for those 1000 TT guys. I myself do not agree moving to the regionals because of their low starting pay and relocation costs to a bigger and more expensive city. I am a 3000 TT young guy with over 1700 MPIC and would be a prime candidate for the airlines. But I refuse to budge until they realize that the current contracts and low pay/medium to high workload per month change for the better. I find it pittyful that regionals, as well as their pilots, say that there is okay money to be made if you work extra credits etc, but what life do you have after those extra days working? Not a great one IMHO. I have seen many of my colleagues who moved on struggle to make ends meet.

Northern operators need to understand that if they want to employ new pilots, let alone keep the current ones they have, they need to come up with sign up bonuses, increased salary and/or offer a balanced work life relationship, because this is where our industry is at now. Two 703 operators are doing it right by offering a 85k and 100k pay packages respectively for rotational medevac captains. Other companies need to acknowledge this and follow suit if they want to attract the right experienced guys who will do the job safely with their wealth of knowledge acquired over the years. Times are changing, so better saddle up guys!

I agree the pay is pretty crappy, but the job is soooooooooo much easier then flying up north. You just show up and fly. I used to do planned 14 hour days all the time. That was the norm. I have 16 days off this month and live in downtown Vancouver and am not starving by any means. I'd choose this over my last job over and over again. If there wasn't the opportunity to make left seat money relatively soon then my opinion might change.

[FOD_Vacuum]

MrWings, I fly a light turboprop for 70k/year and only work half of the year with confirmed flights to and from home with a juicy 5 figure bonus every year plus pay increases.

[Rupert_Pupkin]

MrWings, I fly a light turboprop for 70k/year and only work half of the year with confirmed flights to and from home with a juicy 5 figure bonus every year plus pay increases.

sweet so whats the problem bud?