Northern Air Carriers Feeling the Pinch.

[Black_Tusk]

Not just paid well, but right in the pipe for moving up to Encore and Jazz. I've heard some 1500 hour FO's with minimal PIC going to the majors.

If my majors you mean AC or WJ, name one.

Both. To their turboprop operations.

Ok, then yes I agree with you. I was just confused because you said "majors" and Jazz/Encore/Sky/GGN are not majors.

[Rupert_Pupkin]

If my majors you mean AC or WJ, name one.

Both. To their turboprop operations.

Ok, then yes I agree with you. I was just confused because you said "majors" and Jazz/Encore/Sky/GGN are not majors.

There are some brand new ATPL pilots going to AC via the PML though. (Just jazz experience) Got pretty lucky.

[Black_Tusk]

Both. To their turboprop operations.

Ok, then yes I agree with you. I was just confused because you said "majors" and Jazz/Encore/Sky/GGN are not majors.

There are some brand new ATPL pilots going to AC via the PML though. (Just jazz experience) Got pretty lucky.

Yup. And those who decided to make the jump in to Jazz in the last 2 years will have a big payoff when AC calls. It's happening regularly and people on here that say they will never go to a regional until the pay is increased will be left in the dust. They'll be starting their first year regional job in 5 years when the pay (inevitably) goes up and they decide to make the switch, while those who went to places like Jazz now or in the last 1-2 years will be 2 years away from a left seat at mainline or sitting right seat on a widebody making $140k/yr.

[Rupert_Pupkin]

Ok, then yes I agree with you. I was just confused because you said "majors" and Jazz/Encore/Sky/GGN are not majors.

There are some brand new ATPL pilots going to AC via the PML though. (Just jazz experience) Got pretty lucky.

Yup. And those who decided to make the jump in to Jazz in the last 2 years will have a big payoff when AC calls. It's happening regularly and people on here that say they will never go to a regional until the pay is increased will be left in the dust. They'll be starting their first year regional job in 5 years when the pay (inevitably) goes up and they decide to make the switch, while those who went to places like Jazz now or in the last 1-2 years will be 2 years away from a left seat at mainline or sitting right seat on a widebody making $140k/yr.

I got PFO'd from 2.0 but at least I'll be a captain for the next 23 years rather then flying a 1900/king air. I'm not sure why people can't make the 6-9 month pay sacrifice.

[Black_Tusk]

There are some brand new ATPL pilots going to AC via the PML though. (Just jazz experience) Got pretty lucky.

Yup. And those who decided to make the jump in to Jazz in the last 2 years will have a big payoff when AC calls. It's happening regularly and people on here that say they will never go to a regional until the pay is increased will be left in the dust. They'll be starting their first year regional job in 5 years when the pay (inevitably) goes up and they decide to make the switch, while those who went to places like Jazz now or in the last 1-2 years will be 2 years away from a left seat at mainline or sitting right seat on a widebody making $140k/yr.

I got PFO'd from 2.0 but at least I'll be a captain for the next 23 years rather then flying a 1900/king air. I'm not sure why people can't make the 6-9 month pay sacrifice.

That's the other side of it too.. I agree. If you don't get on you'll be in a left seat for the rest of you career.

Also, you can reapply can't you? I know people that took 2-3 applications to get hired at mainline.

[FOD_Vacuum]

MrWings, I fly a light turboprop for 70k/year and only work half of the year with confirmed flights to and from home with a juicy 5 figure bonus every year plus pay increases.

sweet so whats the problem bud?

The problem is that the regionals and airlines are boosting good quarterly profits and only paying their pilots nickel and dimes. Upon another note, I got a substantial raise today to $90k, simply because my company does not want to lose pilots and park aircraft. It worked, I am staying but the regionals and airlines in Canada don't seem to want to pay up for new pilots, making it difficult for me to accept such a drastic pay cut. I would like to work at the 705 level, but I really don't agree with the low pay. That is all.

[skypirate88]

The problem is, at least at the moment, the regionals are still filling courses (mostly). It hasn't got to the point that applications have stopped. What's the incentive to raise pay if they can still find pilots to do the work for the offer on the table ?

I am happy you can make a good wage and be happy where you are FOD. You have to do what is right for you. For me, I came to Jazz while I was on the cusp of another layoff. I stayed at Jazz even after being recalled, because even though the pay was lower, the carrier prospects were better. I'll be a captain here, in my preferred base with 18 months seniority. With the upgrade, comes the raise. The low pay was a short term sacrifice to better my career.

[valleyboy]

What I am seeing now is that while young pilots are waiting for the call level 2 carriers they are reluctant to jump to level 3 carriers like Perimeter and Pacific Coastal because of training bonds. They are choosing to sit in their 703 jobs and wait. I think training bonds, with management/owner archaic mind sets will slowly die because once the light comes on, and it's starting, the only people they will attract are the brand new virgins. Experienced pilots will move on because the most absurd aspect of canadian aviation is this bonding for every aircraft flown, and these guys are afraid of collective agreements. Restrictive contracts but afraid of unions, I wonder why?

I digress, Making a place of preferred employment,using your head in hiring and planning for turnovers and keeping it open between pilots and management so the pilot group keeps you in the loop as well. In 703 it's not difficult to apply a formula of hiring at the bottom and upgrading. Low time captains are capable of getting around the country as long as the operation maintains strict control, monitors wx and loads and never pushes. It's surprising that a legal operation is so much easier to manage and far less pressure on pilots. It's nice to walk into a room of smiling faces in the morning. I have found out that flight hours are not the most important issue. I have met and worked with 300 hour pilots who are very capable and have better skills than some 1200 hour pilots. Proper training and operational control, pretty basic stuff but it seems to be lacking in a lot of 703, mom and pop operations.

[Magnetron]

The problem is that the regionals and airlines are boosting good quarterly profits and only paying their pilots nickel and dimes. Upon another note, I got a substantial raise today to $90k, simply because my company does not want to lose pilots and park aircraft. It worked, I am staying but the regionals and airlines in Canada don't seem to want to pay up for new pilots, making it difficult for me to accept such a drastic pay cut. I would like to work at the 705 level, but I really don't agree with the low pay. That is all.

While I agree the starting salary at regionals is garbage to what it SHOULD be and perhaps what it will be. This shouldn't stop you from going there if it is the type of flying you would like to do. A paycut (to some extent) should not hinder you from doing something you aspire to do. Despite being low the salary is not unlivable because I know for a fact that you are paying more for rent and parking a month than what we used to get paid for BEFORE taxes. You just have to find a way to live within your means which is very doable at a regional salary. Which doesnt even last that long what with upgrade times and all.

What you actually want to do (as in type of flying) should be as big factor in deciding whether to take a paycut of x dollars for z years...as much as you include Money, lifestyle, benefits, working conditions etc.

[180]

You also have to look at the long range forecast FOD. How long will $90K feel like a jackpot for you?

$90K is pretty close to the most you will ever make in the 703 world. Don't get me wrong, $90K is a solid chunk of change, especially when you are single. But if a family and kids are in your future, I'm sorry to say, but $90K doesn't support a family of 4 if you have a modest $400K mortgage and want to plan for the future. I bit the bullet and left my $90K 703 job for a $45K 705 job, and 2 years later, I was back up to $90K+ with the prospect of making $250-$350K (USD if I feel adventurous).

I was never driven by money, which is why I spent so long on the scenic route enjoying the journey, but with a family to provide for and kids in play, the scenic route has become a weekend and vacation luxury, and Mon-Fri, my focus is on the destination.

[MrWings]

The problem is, at least at the moment, the regionals are still filling courses (mostly). It hasn't got to the point that applications have stopped. What's the incentive to raise pay if they can still find pilots to do the work for the offer on the table ?

This is basically it.

[Black_Tusk]

You also have to look at the long range forecast FOD. How long will $90K feel like a jackpot for you?

$90K is pretty close to the most you will ever make in the 703 world. Don't get me wrong, $90K is a solid chunk of change, especially when you are single. But if a family and kids are in your future, I'm sorry to say, but $90K doesn't support a family of 4 if you have a modest $400K mortgage and want to plan for the future. I bit the bullet and left my $90K 703 job for a $45K 705 job, and 2 years later, I was back up to $90K+ with the prospect of making $250-$350K (USD if I feel adventurous).

I was never driven by money, which is why I spent so long on the scenic route enjoying the journey, but with a family to provide for and kids in play, the scenic route has become a weekend and vacation luxury, and Mon-Fri, my focus is on the destination.

Exactly. Come to Jazz and in less that 2 years you'll be making 90k...

[co-joe]

What's interesting to see is the rotation line creeping further and further south.

Companies in the arctic have mostly all been willing to rotate captains and some fo's up there to do the work. To see that line now down to Ft St John in BC, Ft Smith NT, and across to northern SK, and MB is interesting. I wonder how far south it will come in the next few years?

[planemikey]

If you pay people properly they will go to school . The air operators do not pay so there will be a shortage that will only get worse ! It is really that simple . AME 2 years of school 15 an hour when he gets out you figure it out .