Class 4 instructor hourly rate

[Aviatard]

Think my advice is unbelievably bad? Improve it then. I'd love to hear it.

This posting was a lot better when it said "Sucks to be you, PF"

[rookiepilot]

Think my advice is unbelievably bad? Improve it then. I'd love to hear it.

This posting was a lot better when it said "Sucks to be you, PF"

[Cat Driver]

Here is one of my replies to this subject.

Hi marakii , I have not been associated with ab-initio flight training in Canada since I sold my school in 1991, however if I were operating a school today I would pay significantly more than the other schools.

Paying more does not in and of it's self guarantee an employee will be suitable, but it is a good start because if the employee does not produce it is easier to replace him/ her.

It is easier because by offering very attractive pay you will have more pilots applying.

[rookiepilot]

Anyone who finds no value, need not read it.

Too late... precious seconds of my life I'll never get back

What is your detailed career advice, Photofly, to this poster?

Got anything to contribute?

Guess not. What a surprise. Let's try again, let me remind you of the OP's question, (use it like a checklist)

"My concern is I have been employed almost a year and don't have any regular students yet and barely fly."

Sounds like a problem to me.
Now -- this fellow instructor is looking for advice. You're highly experienced, at least that's my perception. What do you have for him, Photofly?

[photofly]

If you want to throw brickbats at me, that's fine, I'm not the slightest bit disturbed. But if you actually want to know what I think, you might want to ask in a more polite manner.

If I was a new flight instructor working at a flight school and not getting any students, I'd discuss it with my CFI, and the flight school owner or manager. There might be a good reason, or at least something simple I could do to improve the situation. If they're a bunch of assholes who can't or won't help I'd go and find somewhere else to work. I don't think I'd turn to a bunch of anonymous people on the internet for advice.

So on that basis, no, I have no advice for the OP.

(BTW there are lots of ads on AvCanada for Class IV flight instructors at the moment.)

[LifeAt90Kts]

My 2 cents for what it's worth as a fellow class 4.

When I started my flight training, I made a point of visiting airports, and just walking around shaking peoples hands (especially during my CPL time building!). Visiting every fly in pancake breakfast, airplane show and shine, and airport open house I could find. No one in my family flies so I had to build my own network.

Upon completion of my class 4 a few months ago I had 3 job offers within 48 hours which came directly from people I met in the scenarios I detailed above.

I picked the school that not only had a good reputation from the students and instructors there previously, but also promised me enough air cadets to get my 3 solos and flight tests needed to get my class 3 by the end of the summer.

I also have some regular full time students that I cultivated myself, through those same contacts. The school I'm at also fairly distributes the walk in students. I am booked from 8 in the morning to 8 in the evening every day I choose to be.

I am in no way trying to pass judgement on what you've experienced, but I've always found that the harder I work, the luckier I get.

I would suggest making an appearance at every single aviation event you possibly can with a big smile on your face and a firm handshake. If after making your presence known and doing some serious introspection to make sure there's nothing about you or your teaching style that might be turning people off, you still haven't gotten more work... Move. I can tell you first hand there ARE schools that support their instructors and provide a positive work environment.

Best of luck!

[Shiny Side Up]

I've run a business for 20 years.

Have you had to manage employees during any of those? If you have, you'd know that your "blacklisting" policy could run you into a heap of legal trouble. Nevermind the fact threatening it as a matter of "encouraging" good behavior usually has the opposite effect.

Just saying.

On the subject of starting as a class 4, do whatever you can so the students are going to be meeting you and know your face. Volunteer to answer phones, teach ground school. In general hang around the airport.

[rookiepilot]

My 2 cents for what it's worth as a fellow class 4.

When I started my flight training, I made a point of visiting airports, and just walking around shaking peoples hands (especially during my CPL time building!). Visiting every fly in pancake breakfast, airplane show and shine, and airport open house I could find. No one in my family flies so I had to build my own network.

Upon completion of my class 4 a few months ago I had 3 job offers within 48 hours which came directly from people I met in the scenarios I detailed above.

I picked the school that not only had a good reputation from the students and instructors there previously, but also promised me enough air cadets to get my 3 solos and flight tests needed to get my class 3 by the end of the summer.

I also have some regular full time students that I cultivated myself, through those same contacts. The school I'm at also fairly distributes the walk in students. I am booked from 8 in the morning to 8 in the evening every day I choose to be.

I am in no way trying to pass judgement on what you've experienced, but I've always found that the harder I work, the luckier I get.

I would suggest making an appearance at every single aviation event you possibly can with a big smile on your face and a firm handshake. If after making your presence known and doing some serious introspection to make sure there's nothing about you or your teaching style that might be turning people off, you still haven't gotten more work... Move. I can tell you first hand there ARE schools that support their instructors and provide a positive work environment.

Best of luck!

Excellent. In any industry.

[rookiepilot]

I've run a business for 20 years.

Have you had to manage employees during any of those? If you have, you'd know that your "blacklisting" policy could run you into a heap of legal trouble. Nevermind the fact threatening it as a matter of "encouraging" good behavior usually has the opposite effect.

Shiny. I'd had employees, suppliers, contractors, business associates.

I'd suggest reading exactly what I wrote, and not photofly's misquoting of what I wrote.

No where did I write that I ever would threaten an employee to encourage good behaviour or work harder, and I've never done that.

If an employee --in the industry example I quoted -- say returned a known damaged aircraft without fully reporting it, lied or decieved me about it, yes I would blacklist that person. They would never work for me again, and I would tell my all friends in the business, too.

Once trust is broken, it can rarely be restored. Certainly with me, that's how it is. In my world, lying in a non negotiable offense, for one. It's just a principle, and I know many other business owners who feel the same way.

Trying to make a point -- is it's a small community, and the business owners run it, whether in the FTU or 705 industry. They write the paychecks. Pissing them off, gaining a reputation, is not a wise idea for ones career.

A lot of people here seem to have an anti company attitude, at least on the internet. Do the minimum required, bitch incessantly, rail that the company is the enemy. I don't think that is a path to happiness or success, that's all. Make your company, your partner.

[photofly]

Let's remind ourselves what you said:

And -- for troublemakers -- I'd blacklist you. And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too. Harsh? Yep. But that's how it works.

Here's the thing about "blacklists": they're basically a form of self aggrandizement. the person doing the threatening is on a power trip over their employee, making them fear that the employer has hidden influence over them, beyond the confines of their usually abusive employment. It's the equivalent of an abusive spouse threatening to throw acid in your face to scar you forever. They're not a legitimate management tool.

The good news is that people who threaten to blacklist are widely recognized as terrible employers whose word counts for nothing.

[Aviatard]

A lot of people here seem to have an anti company attitude, at least on the internet.

I don't think threatening to blacklist people is encouraging a positive company attitude.

[photofly]

If someone is a douchebag, why would you want to help your competitors by warning them, anyway? It makes no commercial sense. Really - it's just an abusive power trip.

[rookiepilot]

If someone is a douchebag, why would you want to help your competitors by warning them, anyway? It makes no commercial sense. Really - it's just an abusive power trip.

Clearly then you don't get the business community, is a community.

And you're nuts if you call blacklisting someone who lies about the condition of a plane, endangering not only the business but potentially people's lives, "an abusive power trip".

I wouldn't ever threaten. It would just happen.

What are you smoking, you who would permit this behaviour?

[CpnCrunch]

If someone is a douchebag, why would you want to help your competitors by warning them, anyway? It makes no commercial sense. Really - it's just an abusive power trip.

I'm not sure how it works in Ontario, but in the rest of the country CFIs and class 1s talk to each other, and they recommend each other. It's not really a cut-throat business at all. And they definitely do talk to each other about the (very occasional) douchebag instructors.

Rookiepilot is right...most business owners warn each other about lying/stealing employees if they hear the douchebag is looking for work at their competitor.

I don't think we're talking about blacklisting someone who doesn't pre-emptively wash all the flight-school planes...

[Shiny Side Up]

If an employee --in the industry example I quoted -- say returned a known damaged aircraft without fully reporting it, lied or decieved me about it, yes I would blacklist that person. They would never work for me again, and I would tell my all friends in the business, too.

Your answer here still indicates you haven't had much experience in dismissing employees for the kinds of reasons you state. Or if you have they have been somewhat compliant with with your methods, or the issue has just not come up with them seeking employment in you "blacklist" reach. I'd suggest next time you do have to make such a dismissal, you consult a lawyer about your ideas, it may be enlightening. Yes saying that person would never work for you again is one thing, spreading the word is another. My personal advice to anyone in this sort of situation (dismissing an employee who may have committed some egregious offense) is to remember what Thumper said. Often saying nothing at all is damning enough.

I don't think threatening to blacklist people is encouraging a positive company attitude.

Indeed. To date, its been a threat used by only the worst employers I've had. A few times its been used when I refused to do unsafe work. A few times when I decided to leave an employer with the customary two weeks notice. There's often two sides to any story, and I've done enough hiring and firing to know that. Hiring people is such a chancy game, but ultimately you have to get a feel for how the new employee is going to be yourself, since you can't count on the "blacklists" by guys like Rookie to give you a good picture, or an honest one for that matter.

[Shiny Side Up]

Rookiepilot is right...most business owners warn each other about lying/stealing employees if they hear the douchebag is looking for work at their competitor.

They're still really careful about it Cpn, I'd say the straight stuff only gets passed on to those where you know its not going to come back at you. And Like I said, saying nothing is often enough.

[CpnCrunch]

They're still really careful about it Cpn, I'd say the straight stuff only gets passed on to those where you know its not going to come back at you. And Like I said, saying nothing is often enough.

Yeah, I don't think we're talking about broadcasting it on avcanada or similar, or phoning up all your buddies and announcing it. I think it's more along the lines of a quiet word with a trusted business colleague if, say, you hear that someone you fired for stealing something is about to be hired by them. (This happened at my wife's company).

I've been screwed over by two freelance instructors over the years, and on occasion I've PMed people here who have mentioned one of these instructors. I just explain what happened to me, and leave it at that. One of them was just a low-time class 3 guy who posted on avcanada and instructed part time, so I should have known better. The other was a high-time guy who worked at a large, well-respected flight school and was actually recommended by another CFI.

[photofly]

I wouldn't ever threaten. It would just happen.

I see. That's why you boast about it on here. Let's read what you wrote again. Sounds like a blunt threat to me:

And -- for troublemakers -- I'd blacklist you. And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too. Harsh? Yep. But that's how it works.

You'll very quickly find that "troublemaker" is the label that gets attached to people who raise safety concerns, refuse to fly overweight and correctly write aircraft defects in the journey log to the annoyance of management. You're welcome not to employ such people. Well, you would be, if you had anything to do with commercial aviation.

And you're nuts if you call blacklisting someone who lies about the condition of a plane, endangering not only the business but potentially people's lives, "an abusive power trip".

That's a perfect description of some aviation business owners that I know, but not any pilots.

I think I'm going to buy you a copy of MS flightschool simulator so you can indulge your evident aviation management fantasies there in a harmless way.

[rookiepilot]

They're still really careful about it Cpn, I'd say the straight stuff only gets passed on to those where you know its not going to come back at you. And Like I said, saying nothing is often enough.

Yeah, I don't think we're talking about broadcasting it on avcanada or similar, or phoning up all your buddies and announcing it. I think it's more along the lines of a quiet word with a trusted business colleague if, say, you hear that someone you fired for stealing something is about to be hired by them. (This happened at my wife's company).

I've been screwed over by two freelance instructors over the years, and on occasion I've PMed people here who have mentioned one of these instructors. I just explain what happened to me, and leave it at that. One of them was just a low-time class 3 guy who posted on avcanada and instructed part time, so I should have known better. The other was a high-time guy who worked at a large, well-respected flight school and was actually recommended by another CFI.

I think Crunch has a good understanding here, of the context. I also for balance made it clear, in my business I pay very well (mostly contract work, yes) and respect those doing work for me, and because of that people do work well for me. But it's a 2 way street, and I expect integrity.

It's a simple principle I was trying to communicate to instructors, or anyone, starting out. Find a good employer -- Work hard, do far more than is expected, operate with absolute honesty, initiative, integrity, drive, build the trust of others, and the world in time is your oyster, because the majority aren't like that.

Many are more like PF. They see employers as all evil bloodsucking scum, the enemy, and furthermore figure the world owes them a living.

This is simply not the way to get ahead, in my view, in the long run, as a general principle.

Sorry if that offends anyone. I thought straight talk would help the OP more than flowers and false sentiments.

FWIW I think Lifeat90knots ideas and attitude are outstanding. Well done and any decent employer would be thrilled to have you.

[photofly]

So, do you apologize for your threats to blacklist pilots? I guess it's hypothetical since you don't employ any.

Many more are like PF. They see employers as ... evil bloodsucking scum"

There are some, for sure. The important thing is to spot them. Their attitude towards threatening their "troublesome" employees with blacklisting is a fair indicator.

[Shiny Side Up]

Their attitude towards threatening their "troublesome" employees with blacklisting is a fair indicator.

There is a bright side, if not to paint too bleak of a picture to a potential employee in that all the times I've been threatened to be "blacklisted" in this business has been a completely empty threat. All bluster by guys like Rookie who maybe feel that they exert more power in this world than they do.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Their attitude towards threatening their "troublesome" employees with blacklisting is a fair indicator.

There is a bright side, if not to paint too bleak of a picture to a potential employee in that all the times I've been threatened to be "blacklisted" in this business has been a completely empty threat. All bluster by guys like Rookie who maybe feel that they exert more power in this world than they do.

I agree with Shiny. The industry is small enough you quickly get a reputation. That reputation is shaped by many more people than your boss. The one time I was threatened with a blacklisting, the general consensus among people that knew me was that it was good news. Getting a positive recommendation from that individual was the real danger signal as he was pretty much universally despised.

One challenge for prospective new commercial pilots is that all the flying they done has been in the context of have flight training where they are the customer. Some have trouble realizing that when they get their first job that the purpose of the flight has nothing to do with what they want it is all about getting the job done in an efficient and safe manner while keeping the customer happy.

My personal pet peeve with new CPL's ? They treat the airplane like a condom. As soon as they have had their fun they discard it. Want to impress your boss on your first job. Never walk away from a dirty airplane.

[rookiepilot]

No where have I written that I would actually ever threaten a specific employee with anything, nor have I ever done so.

[photofly]

And -- for troublemakers -- I'd blacklist you. And I'd tell all my flight school / 705 friends, too. Harsh? Yep. But that's how it works. It's a small community, from my understanding.

That's you, making the threat right now.

Blacklists work as, er, "motivation", when the employees you're trying to motivate know that's the way you operate. And here you are, advertising yourself as an employer giving career advice, and explaining that's the way you operate. It's wrong in a thread where you're giving career advice to a youngster to promote blacklisting as an acceptable management practice.

I call you out for saying it, and I will continue to do so until you acknowledge the point.

To be honest, I kind of feel it's like everything you know on the subject you read on AvCanada: you've read that some employers behave like that, and now you want other people to think you're badass and powerful like the bosses you heard about on here. You should be more careful in what you write, and not so quick to paint yourself in a box with some very unpleasant people.

[Cat Driver]

Businesses and instructors over time get a reputation of either good or bad by comments made by either employees or students..