foreign pilots in 'merika

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foreign pilots in 'merika

#1 Post by BE20 Driver » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:55 pm

Spin off from another thread...

I heard that there was recently a bill going through congress in the States to allow foreign pilots due to shortages caused by demographics and the 1500 hour rule. One of the guys I was flying with recently mentioned the same.
Anyone know if this was killed when Trump came to power or is this something that is actually being proposed?
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#2 Post by Panama Jack » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:08 am

Not sure. But my expectations and hopes under the Trump Administration are very, very low.

I do know that US regional airlines are employing Australian pilots who can easily get an E-3 visa (which was a negotiated by-product of the Australia- United States Free Trade Agreement) during the George W. Bush Administration; it allows both the applicant and spouse to work in the US. Unfortunately it seems that the Canadian Government has never had the vision nor the interest to make it easier for the citizens of either country to move about to follow their professions-- pity.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#3 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:19 am

But, unlike Transport Canada policy to allow foreign pilots with foreign licences to fly Commercially in Canada for Canadian airlines, the Federal Aviation Regulations require an FAA licence to fly for US carriers.

None of that FLVC stuff is possible in the US.

Canadian Regs did not allow it either until some people high up Transport Canada hierarchy decided to Jerry-rig the Regulations and Standard and such a manner to allow it.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/trojan-h ... -hudicourt

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https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/flying-c ... udicourt-1
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#4 Post by Panama Jack » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:19 pm

Gilles,

I know you are passionate about your crusade and I have the distinction of being on your ignore list but dude, give it a break. This was not a question about Canada, FLVC's or Sunwing. Apparently, you yourself are an immigrant and some of us have the FAA Certificates, would love to resettle to the US to work in aviation, but there is absolutely no avenue for this under current INS rules (unlike the opportunity that Canada offered you), so don't be a dick.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#5 Post by Jimmy2 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:17 pm

Gilles as a pilot working for a company that is lobbying the government to allow them to hire foreign pilots, instead of increasing salaries to attract and retain Canadian pilots, I appreciate your efforts.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#6 Post by complexintentions » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:25 am

Panama Jack wrote:Gilles,

I know you are passionate about your crusade and I have the distinction of being on your ignore list but dude, give it a break. This was not a question about Canada, FLVC's or Sunwing. Apparently, you yourself are an immigrant and some of us have the FAA Certificates, would love to resettle to the US to work in aviation, but there is absolutely no avenue for this under current INS rules (unlike the opportunity that Canada offered you), so don't be a dick.
??

I would consider the issue of Canada offering opportunities (that are not reciprocated) for foreigners to work in Canada as entirely relevant to the topic at hand.

No need to let personal animosity cloud your judgement.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#7 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:07 am

Panama Jack wrote:Not sure. But my expectations and hopes under the Trump Administration are very, very low.

I do know that US regional airlines are employing Australian pilots who can easily get an E-3 visa (which was a negotiated by-product of the Australia- United States Free Trade Agreement) during the George W. Bush Administration; it allows both the applicant and spouse to work in the US. Unfortunately it seems that the Canadian Government has never had the vision nor the interest to make it easier for the citizens of either country to move about to follow their professions-- pity.
I have a Canadian cousin who recently gratuated from dentistry school in Quebec. She received a job offer in Florida and was immediatly granted a US work permit.....
This was this summer.....

PS you are not on my ignore list yet.
That distinction is reserved for people like that married pilot who while having a lasting affair with an FA in his company had the gall to mention my wife on AvCanada, not knowing that I knew who he was.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#8 Post by Panama Jack » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:28 am

complexintentions wrote:
I would consider the issue of Canada offering opportunities (that are not reciprocated) for foreigners to work in Canada as entirely relevant to the topic at hand.

No need to let personal animosity cloud your judgement.

Complexintentions-- I always do enjoy and respect your well thought-out and eloquently expressed posts. However, trying to keep this thread from drifting, the topic is about the United States of America, and how foreign pilots who hold the required FAA Certificates and qualifications that US employers are seeking (and supposedly having a challenge finding) are able to immigrate to the country legally and, perhaps, permanently. Not unless IT folks who get H-1 visas, but again, I don't want this thread to drift into a topic about Indians from Bangalore flooding Silicon Valley. Canada is an entirely different animal and, for better or for worse (sometimes both) Ottawa behaves quite differently from Washington. Despite the close cultural, linguistic and economic ties, NAFTA is nothing like the EU/Schengen Area or the GCC (I think you know what I mean by that). Just trying to keep topic from derailing.

Gilles Hudicourt- I thought I was on your ignore list.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#9 Post by Black_Tusk » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:10 pm

If I had the chance to go live somewhere with half the cost of living, and twice the pay.. I'd consider it. I'd be happy to live in the SF Bay, San Diego, Virginia/DC area or Texas. Go buy myself a nice $500,000 house which would be the equivalent of a 2-5 million dollar house in Vancouver all while making more money? The Canadian carriers will have to compete if this happens, so I think it's a good thing for everyone.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#10 Post by North Shore » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:19 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:If I had the chance to go live somewhere with half the cost of living, and twice the pay.. I'd consider it. I'd be happy to live in the SF Bay, San Diego, Virginia/DC area or Texas. Go buy myself a nice $500,000 house which would be the equivalent of a 2-5 million dollar house in Vancouver all while making more money?
Who wouldn't!
The Canadian carriers will have to compete if this happens, so I think it's a good thing for everyone.
Which pretty much guarantees that it won't, sadly...
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#11 Post by altiplano » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:48 pm

U S A !
U S A !
U S A !

lol...

They (pilots) are doing very well down there right now...

Easily double career earnings vs. one of our larger airlines... plus lower tax and cost of living.

I think every Canadian would take a good look at it even if they had a solid job here.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#12 Post by Black_Tusk » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:43 pm

altiplano wrote:U S A !
U S A !
U S A !

lol...

They (pilots) are doing very well down there right now...

Easily double career earnings vs. one of our larger airlines... plus lower tax and cost of living.

I think every Canadian would take a good look at it even if they had a solid job here.
You'd be foolish not to.

I used to be all about "gotta get back home" but the older I get the more I realize there are so many options out there and from a quality of life perspective it would be a huge benefit to live in the USA while making more money with a much lower cost of living.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#13 Post by av8ts » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:54 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:
altiplano wrote:U S A !
U S A !
U S A !

lol...

They (pilots) are doing very well down there right now...

Easily double career earnings vs. one of our larger airlines... plus lower tax and cost of living.

I think every Canadian would take a good look at it even if they had a solid job here.
You'd be foolish not to.

I used to be all about "gotta get back home" but the older I get the more I realize there are so many options out there and from a quality of life perspective it would be a huge benefit to live in the USA while making more money with a much lower cost of living.

I am the opposite. The older I get the less I would even consider living in the US. We have even stopped visiting there since Trump was elected. Where I work and live is about so much more than money
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#14 Post by pilotbzh » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:32 pm

Don't forget the health insurance cost in the US, less taxes but other cost add up fast....never mind the risk of robbery and shooting both by bad guys and cops... :twisted:
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#15 Post by altiplano » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:40 pm

You save more than the cost of insurance in taxes.

Then you don't have to wait for a year to get an appointment with anything other than your G.P.

If you really want to save you can get packages that are far less and don't cover stitches or a broken wrist r singing relatively small... so you pay the $500 or $2500 if that comes along... but then if you have a big one or need surgery or something you're covered.

Anyway. 1st year narrowbody captains in any US legacy carrier pay more than any of the most senior jobs in this country.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#16 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:18 pm

Yup....Socialism is great.

Hopefully Trump will be able to keep the socialists out of power forever.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#17 Post by Old fella » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:54 pm

Lived in Canada all my 68yrs, so can't make any comparisons but I suppose I can say I have a hell of a lot more to be thankful for than pissed about.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#18 Post by complexintentions » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:32 pm

@Panama Jack,

Likewise, I always enjoy your perspective as a fellow expat, was just commenting on the lack of reciprocity being a related issue. But yeah, I'm in no hurry to see the thread detour to Sunwing/Transat/TFW squabbling, there are plenty of those already.

@Black Tusk,

I don't think you'd find anything in San Francisco cheaper than in Canada, the Bay area has some of the highest-priced real estate in the world. But I take your point, there is far better value for money in the US in general as far as cost of living.
I used to be all about "gotta get back home" but the older I get the more I realize there are so many options out there and from a quality of life perspective it would be a huge benefit to live in the USA while making more money with a much lower cost of living.
Funny you should say that, I'm of exactly the same mindset. When I expatriated I slowly went from missing Canada terribly and doing everything I could to try and return, to tolerating the situation, to enjoying it, to where I no longer have any desire to return other than to see the only things about Canada I love: my extended family, my friends, and the natural beauty. None of which has anything to do with flags and nationalism. So frequent visits are more than enough to satisfy any desire to retain ties. As far as the quality of life on a daily, practical level, there are almost too many options to choose from besides Canada.
av8ts wrote:I am the opposite. The older I get the less I would even consider living in the US. We have even stopped visiting there since Trump was elected. Where I work and live is about so much more than money.
I'm sorry but that is a fundamentally flawed statement, because it assumes that the quality of life in the US is uniformly inferior to Canada, and vice versa. It's foolish to generalize a vast, geographically diverse nation of over 300,000,000 people. Of course it's about more than money. There are places I wouldn't live in the US, but there are far more in Canada. I do know that my many family members and friends who repatriated to the US are not returning. Some do, of course. One place that works for one person doesn't for another. But that's the point: when you stop "even considering" something, you're only limiting yourself. I'm sure Trump hasn't noticed or cared you stopped coming. The "virtue signalling" of such statements is one of my pet peeves of present-day Canada.
Old fella wrote:Lived in Canada all my 68yrs, so can't make any comparisons but I suppose I can say I have a hell of a lot more to be thankful for than pissed about.
Old fella, I love your statement, because it sums up the whole key to being content - enjoying what you have instead of complaining about what you don't. Are you sure you're really Canadian? :lol:
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#19 Post by Diadem » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:03 pm

altiplano wrote:You save more than the cost of insurance in taxes.
http://www.investopedia.com/financial-e ... icans.aspx
That's not true at all. Depending on which province/state you live in and which tax bracket you fall into, you may pay less tax in Canada than the US, while also receiving universal health care. Unfortunately I can't remember the exact article, but I read an analysis which showed that an average Canadian earning $90000/year will pay less tax overall than Americans living in all but a couple of states; when you factor in sales, consumption, and other taxes, in addition to income taxes, Americans tend to pay more and get less.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#20 Post by JBI » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:10 am

As a Canadian currently living in NYC but still working for a Canadian carrier (even though in theory I could get my FAA ticket and right to work temporarily in the US), I have a couple quick thoughts. Happy to discuss more via a PM.

Cost of living in NYC is more than anywhere in Canada. We're here for my wife's job and it makes sense, but, while NYC may be one of the more junior bases for a lot of US carriers, it is crazy expensive. They also have a 2% city income tax.

I miss the Canadian health care system. It's not perfect by any means, but it's pretty great.

The US regionals are starving for pilots - the majors are not. Still lots of very competitive candidates for the majors. It's not impossible to get a job with the majors without US experience, but there are definitely a number of factors where being a candidate who has all his/her flying outside of the US would make it even harder to get a job with a US major.

In my experience only, TSA / Airport businesses / security etc. in the US seem to have a little more respect and deference to pilots than in Canada. Not going to lie, it's a nice feeling.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#21 Post by complexintentions » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:00 am

Diadem wrote:
altiplano wrote:You save more than the cost of insurance in taxes.
http://www.investopedia.com/financial-e ... icans.aspx
That's not true at all. Depending on which province/state you live in and which tax bracket you fall into, you may pay less tax in Canada than the US, while also receiving universal health care. Unfortunately I can't remember the exact article, but I read an analysis which showed that an average Canadian earning $90000/year will pay less tax overall than Americans living in all but a couple of states; when you factor in sales, consumption, and other taxes, in addition to income taxes, Americans tend to pay more and get less.
I don't find the article credible at all. One quote:
U.S. federal income tax brackets range from 10% to 35% for individuals. On the Canadian side, the range is 15% to 29%. In the U.S., the lowest tax bracket bumps to 15% at $8,500 and to 25% at $34,501. The bottom Canadian bracket stays at 15% until $41,544. This is the bulk of the reason that lower-income Canadians are often better off than Americans in an identical tax situation. On the other hand, the IRS taxes the richest Americans at 35% whereas the top federal tax rate in Canada is 29%.
Canada has a progressive tax system, which means there is no single tax rate. Setting aside that the 29% federal Canadian rate mentioned was raised to 33%, it completely omits the fact that the highest marginal rate in Canada now ranges from 48% (Alberta, Yukon) to 54% (Nova Scotia). There is nothing remotely comparable to this in the US.

And if we're going to include to include universal healthcare as a major cost savings for Canadians versus Americans, then we also have to look at what for most people is their single biggest monthly cost: housing. That ends the "Americans tend to pay more and get less" argument pretty right quick.

About the only remotely valuable piece from the article was this:
Comparing income taxes in the United States and Canada requires an analysis of the benefits received for those taxes and any other out-of-pocket costs outside of taxes. Each taxpayer's individual situation will determine whether they would be financially better off in one country over the other.
Exactly.

Sure, I would rather be poor in Canada. But if one's goal is something other than poverty, I'd take the US any day. If you want just enough, with any shortfall taken from others willing to work harder or take more risks or get more education than you, choose Canada.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#22 Post by fish4life » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:06 am

it also only mentions federal tax rates... in Canada the provinces all rape you for taxes heavily on top of the federal rates. The U.S. has states with no state income tax.
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#23 Post by PROC_HDG » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:08 am

complexintentions wrote: Sure, I would rather be poor in Canada. But if one's goal is something other than poverty, I'd take the US any day. If you want just enough, with any shortfall taken from others willing to work harder or take more risks or get more education than you, choose Canada.
I wouldn't be so sure. When you start throwing in health care premiums, insurance, schools (if you have kids) etc, the costs of living starts to look fairly similar. At least, that is the conclusion I've always come to when looking into the prospect of working south of the border.

The thing that always got me was the idea of paying thousands of dollars a year for health insurance and still running the risk of having to pay thousands (or h undreds of thousands)out of pocket for a condition that the HMO, through tricky legalize, claims they do not cover. Despite the improvements to health care under the Obama administration (which mostly dont affect people in this income bracket we're talking about), the regulation of HMOs is still frankly pretty poor and would worry me if I lived there.

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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#24 Post by North Shore » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:19 am

Timely article in the Globe about this: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... e35777320/
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Re: foreign pilots in 'merika

#25 Post by PROC_HDG » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:37 am

Something else to take into account is that despite all the talk of the great pilot shortage, there is no evidence that it is actually affecting the hiring practices of the US majors yet. American, Delta and Untied are still hiring high time pilots with multiple university degrees, checking and chief pilot experience, military etc. If you take a look at This Thread you can get an idea of what it takes to be competitive.

Truth is, if they ever do open up the borders to foreigners, the vast majority of those jobs are going to come from the regionals, who are hurting the most for qualified guys.

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