American

Check Pilot · Post by **Check Pilot** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:37 pm

The Americans
Gordon Sinclair
Radio Station CFBR 1010
2 St. Clair Avenue West
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

"LET'S BE PERSONAL"
Broadcast June 5, 1973
CFRB, Toronto, Ontario
Topic: "The Americans"

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The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

CID · Post by **CID** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:46 am

I've read this 30 year old crap before and it just doesn't get any better with age.

At the time it was written, the US was just coming out of another unjust war fiasco.

History shows us that Americans tend not to get involved with anything on an international level unless it affects their bottom line.

They were and still are international bullies who thumb their noses at the rest of world and do exactly what they want without regard to international law or the UN or their closest ally and largest trading partner, Canada.

When the richest country in the world needs help, it needs to help itself first. Then it needs to treat its friends with respect so that when they really need help, everyone will be completely willing to help.

2low · Post by **2low** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:59 am

Don't even think of getting any sympathy about Americans from me.

ZBB118.10 · Post by **ZBB118.10** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:48 am

Same.

Time to re-deploy all those millions of $$ of financial resources (spent on that oh so worthwhile war in Iraq) to the home front instead, now that Katrina has hit so bad. Impressive to see the rapid reaction and efficient system that is the Bush Administration...(NOT!) ...

fanspeed · Post by **fanspeed** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:54 am

This guy is full of crap. Period.

55+ · Post by **55+** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:02 am

Ditto for me also. The situation in New Orleans is the Bush Adminstration at it's finess, going to be a very black mark on old"W" as time goes by and all the facts come it. Ain't gonna be pretty

talkinghead · Post by **talkinghead** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:03 am

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

What-ever!
It was not true then and it aint true now.

Tube Driver · Post by **Tube Driver** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:07 am

All you eastern anti-American bashers make me sick. if that disaster happened in the center of the universe ie. Toronto, the Americans would be the first to offer support. I would like to hear if this total anti-American sentiment is nation wide or if it is primarily a function of the Liberal brainwashing in eastern Canada.

TG · Post by TG » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:26 am

Tube driver I agree, but they seems to have problem to support themself in this current crisis. And the anti american sentiment is not nationwide but pretty much worldwide.

Looks like they are going down hill and we are sitting next to them.

talkinghead · Post by **talkinghead** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:29 am

Tube Driver wrote:All you eastern anti-American bashers
.

That hurts,
Please stop calling me an easterner(sp)

fanspeed · Post by **fanspeed** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:38 am

That hurts,
Please stop calling me an easterner(sp)

Ditto for me

ZBB118.10 · Post by **ZBB118.10** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:50 pm

Err...eastern? Not me. So the west is a haven of love and brotherly hugs for the good old US? Can't see what geography has to do with it?

captain_tim · Post by **captain_tim** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:59 pm

Very nice a list of all the good things the Americans did. Some would say that is was out of good heart, others would say that it was for personnel gain.
However the list is incomplete. Let me fill in the blanks.

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.

BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994-? Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime. Forces also engaged in neighboring Pakistan.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002 Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Muslim Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Second Gulf War launched for "regime change" in Baghdad. US, joined by UK and Australia, attacks from Kuwait, other Gulf states, and European and US bases.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:26 pm

Tube Driver and others... the issue is not one of being Anti-American, to say that someone who criticizes the United States and to label them American is to choose the easy way out. Have you ever listened to the right wing banter that spews forth from the staunchest republicans? They are narrow minded biggots who choose to label anyone who opposes their views as being a left wing liberal. They choose to attack people on a personal level by labeling them idiots. The debate is to long to get into on this forum, and quite frankly this is not the place.

By and large Americans are good people, the problem lies in the fact that there are not enough who stand up and question the foreign policies of their federal government and do something about it!

New Orleans is a tragic example of what the U.S. Federal government thinks about the poorest people of the deep south. It seems they can wait. I suggest everyone listen to what the Mayor of New Orleans has to say about the situation(CNN.com). It truly is deplorable that it has taken so long for the various agencies to provide aid, and this from a country that is capable of mobilizing it's troops to carry out acts of agression on many sovereign countries not to mention put men on the Moon!

talkinghead · Post by **talkinghead** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:40 pm

Ya, I do love it when I disagree with what 'W' is doing (or NOT doing) it makes me an American basher.
For the record I have alot of very close friends in the U.S. and I think they are all great people.

haligoner · Post by **haligoner** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:18 pm

I can't even see what this writer's point is WRT foreign nations sending money and assistance. The US isn't short of money, resources, or expertise to deal with this disaster. They just seem to lack the will or motivation to mobilize it in this case.

Why?

Having Japan/Germany/etc send money is like the proverbial sending coals to Newscastle...it's not money the US is short of...and as an aside, Canada has offered and already sent help. It's just been a bit difficult for the Urban Rescue Team from Vancouver, for example, to do their job while they're being shot at.

Saying that the US has been SOOOooo helpful in the past during other crises tends to conveniently overlook the fact that they have also benefitted greatly in the post-crisis rebuilding. Nothing wrong with that per se, but let's tell the whole story. Do ya think Rumsfeld's company is doing all right helping provision the war in Iraq?

Where was this much-vaunted help in Rwanda? Oh wait, no resources or strategic value there. Where is this much-vaunted help in the Sudan, present-day? Darfur is Rwanda all over again, and not a peep...seems like some selective "helping" to me...

ZBB118.10 · Post by **ZBB118.10** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:58 pm

Prop2Jet......

Nicely said - right on the money..such a shame that the masses won't wake up to the neocon bs that spouts from Capitol Hill and the White House.

New Orleans is indeed a case in point..

CID · Post by **CID** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:47 pm

All you eastern anti-American bashers make me sick. if that disaster happened in the center of the universe ie. Toronto, the Americans would be the first to offer support.

This wouldn't have happened in Toronto.

First of all, New Orleans had a 72 hour evactuation notice. They didn't take it seriously. If Toronto got a similar order, there wouldn't be several hundred thousand stranded without transportation. Many American cities have openly refused to have some of New Orleans poorest as temporary guests.

Second, in Canada we tend to provide people with the essentials of life such as health care and welfare when times are rough. So the ratio of the desperatly poor is quite different than in New Orleans.

Third, Toronto doesn't have a HUGE population of families that are decendants of slaves and oppressed minorities who have been stuck in a never ending cycle of poverty and crime.

So if Toronto suffered a similar fate, first, the evacuation would have been much more complete, and those left over wouldn't have been shooting at helicopters sent to save them. Furthermore the amount of looting, rapes and robberies wouldn't have been anywhere near what we are seeing in New Orleans. NO city in Canada would have refused to host disaster victims.

I feel quite confident in what I've stated. Is it America bashing? Am I "anit-American"? Absolutely not. It's not just some random thoughts meant to embarass or demean Americans. This is just another label used by people who just don't know what else to say.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:10 pm

So Canadian Blacks are more civilized than American Blacks? CID digging a hole here...

. . · Post by **. .** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:58 pm

wtf are you talking about hazatude?

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:00 pm

Of course they are...And they do not have as many guns...
During the ice storm we had a good chance to witness the extreme civility of Canadians under similar circumstances.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:10 pm

That was one sided crap back then and it is even more so today.

Which country owes the most in unpaid debts to the United Nations? They backed out of Kyoto and have no regard for NAFTA. Who helped the United States actually gain their independance and become the United States? France did and how many Americans know this? Very few. Eat your freedom fries in protest of France not supporting your invasion of Iraq. The jokes on you, french fries are not french.

Who has the weapons of mass destruction? Not iraq, but the Americans.

I am sorry but I am watching as a one time friendly neighbour is alienating itself from the rest of the world more and more each day. I enjoy the people, their government and foreign policy however, suck.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:35 pm

I have to agree with the broad sentiment here. Just cause I don't like the government, in no way means I dislike the people or wish them ill.

The cry of anti-american is a convenient way to shroud repression in the guise of patriotism. Don't speak out against the government just cause times are rough?? That's crap.

When the government F's up, and no longer represents the best intrest of it's people, it's time to stand up and say something about it.

Calling Bush an idiot is not anti-american, it's about as pro-american as you can get. It's like the whole Shehan thing. People say she's hurting and insulting the american military with her protest. SHE'S ASKING TO SAVE SOLDIERS LIVES!!!! How is this not supportive of the military?

At the risk of sounding racist, it's probably true that Blacks in the southern states are less educated and poorer than those in Canada. But again if you think about it, this is about as non-racist as it gets. It's not that I'm saying these people are inferior, I'm pointing out the the racisim that is still common in southern society. Obviously it is not official policy any more, but the fact remains that the status quo has been kept.

HAZ you seem to assume that we 'lefties' always mean to insult regular citizens. In actual fact I think everyone is trying to support the citizenery, and would agree that the american people are not the problem. Like any other society, americans will believe what they are told is true. If you grew up in Saudi Arabia, you would probably believe that there is only one God, and Mohomed is his prophet. If you watch Fox news everyday, and are told that all Muslims want to kill you cause they hate your freedom, well you might believe that too.

Government and media shape the views of the masses. So question them. Just cause Bush says he prays for all the soldiers in Iraq, doesn't make him a saint. Nor does it make him any less responsible for their deaths.

By the way Hazatude, before you get all mad... I wasn't attacking you, just explaining the position a lot of us seem to hold.

. . · Post by **. .** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:57 pm

Excellent post. I find it funny that the greatest patriots in american history were those that questioned and fought the governments at the time. Now all of the sudden you're anti-american if you question wtf the dude you elected is doing.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

I was in Miami last year and stopped to get gas. When I paid the station attendant, I had to slip the money under a little slot in the 2 inch thick bullet proof glass that incased him.

In the glass was a sticker with an American flag that said, " I fought for our feedom" I looked at my buddies and asked, does anyone else see the irony here?