Well if that's the case then they're upgrade on a machine they're already on, therefor not only is it 8 Sims and 2 weeks GS. They most likely already completed 2 months of training, an initial PPC, probably 2 recurrents with 2 Sims each and recurrent ground school. Followed by probably at a minimum 750+ on type, then the additional 2 week GS and 8 Sims.......... Probably proficient on type and if not, you won't make it through line indoc/line check.goingnowherefast wrote:
I'm mostly poking at people (some Avcanadians) who legitimately think 8 sim sessions and 2 week of ground school during upgrade training will make up for 4000hrs of missing experience. The only thing that fixes fatigue is healthy sleeping habits.
Captain requirements?
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Re: Captain requirements?
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Re: Captain requirements?
With 16+ total sims and 2 months of ground school, a PPL pilot could pass a captain PPC. Doesn't mean that they'll be calm, cool and coherent when shit hits the figurative fan in the real plane with 70 people in the back. A V1 cut in a sim is one thing when you know it's going to happen. It's entirely different in the real plane if the engine starts surging and making weird noises even in cruise before slowly and unexpectedly winding down and quitting.
Experience is keeping your head and thinking critically when things get weird. Training is being proficient in procedures.
Experience is keeping your head and thinking critically when things get weird. Training is being proficient in procedures.
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Re: Captain requirements?
goingnowherefast wrote:With 16+ total sims and 2 months of ground school, a PPL pilot could pass a captain PPC.
Doubt it.
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Re: Captain requirements?
Try 80+.Yycjetdriver wrote:Flying 50 ish hours a month, under very strict SOP's and crew training. Countless outside resources, zero pressure environment, no owner/charter passenger pressure.
I agree with the rest of your post.
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Re: Captain requirements?
Goingnowhere fast's experience at Jazz is reading this forum and word of mouth. A 2000-3000 hour pilot is more than capable of being a safe Captain. Period. This is not 703/704... the training, numerous resources at your disposal within the company are unmatched compared to any 703/704 and many other 705's.Yycjetdriver wrote:Well if that's the case then they're upgrade on a machine they're already on, therefor not only is it 8 Sims and 2 weeks GS. They most likely already completed 2 months of training, an initial PPC, probably 2 recurrents with 2 Sims each and recurrent ground school. Followed by probably at a minimum 750+ on type, then the additional 2 week GS and 8 Sims.......... Probably proficient on type and if not, you won't make it through line indoc/line check.goingnowherefast wrote:
I'm mostly poking at people (some Avcanadians) who legitimately think 8 sim sessions and 2 week of ground school during upgrade training will make up for 4000hrs of missing experience. The only thing that fixes fatigue is healthy sleeping habits.
Re: Captain requirements?
Sunwing also uses a matrix. Credit for time on type at SW counts towards the total experience level required to bid for upgrade (which can be waived at company discretion). Time accrued on type at the carrier has great value.Yycjetdriver wrote:While I agree with it being a concern and something that should be monitored (perhaps an encore stile matrix) the Jazz training certainly does make up for some of the "magical" total time in the logbook.
Regardless, no pilot at SW, Jazz, AC or anywhere else gets cut loose until successful left seat PPC AND line indoc/line check. AC also adds a LOFT style command sim after line check complete. Evaluation of decision making, situational awareness, delegation of duties, resource management, and SOP knowledge and compliance are all a function of the line check.
Ultimately, it is the Flight Standards group at each carrier that make the final decision about qualification for newly upgraded Captains.
Re: Captain requirements?
Jazz now does PIC assessments before the ride to assess suitability. Though, personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of command course, given the quick upgrades.
Re: Captain requirements?
There is a command course. Albeit I found it to be quite brief. An 8 hour day only. It could easily be expanded.
The 'captains assessment' is not only for the company to assess decision making, it is also a great learning experience for those that may be new to the PIC responsibilities and builds on your skill set. In preparation for it, I spent considerable time reviewing areas of the com, foipm and other memos that I had previously skimmed through and picked up a lot. I found it incredibly valuable. That coming from someone who spent most of his career as the PIC.
My opinion was always that a matrix or chosen numbers were not a proper measure of suitability for the left seat. A requirement for an Atpl and the ensuing individual assessments would be enough to weed out those that are incapable of making safe and effective command decisions in a 705 environment.
The 'captains assessment' is not only for the company to assess decision making, it is also a great learning experience for those that may be new to the PIC responsibilities and builds on your skill set. In preparation for it, I spent considerable time reviewing areas of the com, foipm and other memos that I had previously skimmed through and picked up a lot. I found it incredibly valuable. That coming from someone who spent most of his career as the PIC.
My opinion was always that a matrix or chosen numbers were not a proper measure of suitability for the left seat. A requirement for an Atpl and the ensuing individual assessments would be enough to weed out those that are incapable of making safe and effective command decisions in a 705 environment.
Re: Captain requirements?
That is not a command course, but a review of the COM for those who may not have been at the company very long. A command course is entirely different.
I am not in favor of a matrix at all. I have flown with guys with 15000 hrs that have sent chills down my spine, and some lower time F/O's that are super sharp. The PIC assessment is taken rather seriously, and so is line indoc of new Captains.
I find it strange that our industry has always rated ability based on hours. It is one of the few professions that rewards people so disproportionately on experience vs. skill. The two are not equal to each other.
The training at Jazz is top notch. There are people who will unlikely ever be captains at Jazz. We are not train to standard; and even though there are a tone of resources available, should they be exhausted and a candidate decides to continue with training, against the recommendations of the training department, jeopardy is attached.
I am not in favor of a matrix at all. I have flown with guys with 15000 hrs that have sent chills down my spine, and some lower time F/O's that are super sharp. The PIC assessment is taken rather seriously, and so is line indoc of new Captains.
I find it strange that our industry has always rated ability based on hours. It is one of the few professions that rewards people so disproportionately on experience vs. skill. The two are not equal to each other.
The training at Jazz is top notch. There are people who will unlikely ever be captains at Jazz. We are not train to standard; and even though there are a tone of resources available, should they be exhausted and a candidate decides to continue with training, against the recommendations of the training department, jeopardy is attached.
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Re: Captain requirements?
Ok so one guestion for you guys...
You are next in line for left seat on a prop at Jazz, have descent seniority and pre 2015 pay....so you stay or take the FO position with a charter airline in Canada waiting for an upgrade for 2-4 yrs? And of course starting back at 0 seniority and pay that is less then even what you make a Jazz Right seat?
Thanks for all the input.
You are next in line for left seat on a prop at Jazz, have descent seniority and pre 2015 pay....so you stay or take the FO position with a charter airline in Canada waiting for an upgrade for 2-4 yrs? And of course starting back at 0 seniority and pay that is less then even what you make a Jazz Right seat?
Thanks for all the input.
- KenoraPilot
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Re: Captain requirements?
An ATPL and a heart beat......and pass the training lol. Training is really quite good I felt pretty solidly prepared, however, I also stayed on the same type from FO to Captain and that was a huge help.
Re: Captain requirements?
Something not adding up, if you are pre 2015 you are way past next in line for prop left seat. That being said, it sounds like you have an offer for AT or Sunwing, you’re trying to get input of should you stay at Jazz or go and take the hit for a higher paying left seat 4 years down the road.Flathorizon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:57 pm Ok so one guestion for you guys...
You are next in line for left seat on a prop at Jazz, have descent seniority and pre 2015 pay....so you stay or take the FO position with a charter airline in Canada waiting for an upgrade for 2-4 yrs? And of course starting back at 0 seniority and pay that is less then even what you make a Jazz Right seat?
Thanks for all the input.
Couple things come to mind, left seat is less guaranteed at the charter companies, is there any growth planned for them, nothing significant that I’ve heard. So, what are the retirements looking like.
Pre 2015 pay, I would stay put but I don’t like the charter business so that biases me.
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
Re: Captain requirements?
The training is indeed top notch. That said, one has to put in effort in preparing and learning. The number of failures largely stems from those who think they'll be taught, or think they already know it all, which shows they are not ready for the left seat. There's more to it than checking the boxes.
Re: Captain requirements?
Do what your heart desires. The fact you are looking elsewhere and are questioning to stay or not surely shows that you are looking for something else. Sunwing probably has the best choice with 2yrs to upgrade and higher pay.Flathorizon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:57 pm Ok so one guestion for you guys...
You are next in line for left seat on a prop at Jazz, have descent seniority and pre 2015 pay....so you stay or take the FO position with a charter airline in Canada waiting for an upgrade for 2-4 yrs? And of course starting back at 0 seniority and pay that is less then even what you make a Jazz Right seat?
Thanks for all the input.
- KenoraPilot
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Re: Captain requirements?
AMEN.....sorry I kinda figured that was implied by upgrade training. Its on you to be ready.....but figured everyone knew that.Air.Field wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:56 pmThe training is indeed top notch. That said, one has to put in effort in preparing and learning. The number of failures largely stems from those who think they'll be taught, or think they already know it all, which shows they are not ready for the left seat. There's more to it than checking the boxes.
- KenoraPilot
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Re: Captain requirements?
Sunwing is gagging for guys and on their last upgrade cycle they had a class of 20 captain candidates and only 9 passed the training. They had to wet lease an entire 737 because they couldn't staff the captains internally. So if you're looking at sunwing upgrades are coming ASAP (if not almost DE).Flathorizon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:57 pm Ok so one guestion for you guys...
You are next in line for left seat on a prop at Jazz, have descent seniority and pre 2015 pay....so you stay or take the FO position with a charter airline in Canada waiting for an upgrade for 2-4 yrs? And of course starting back at 0 seniority and pay that is less then even what you make a Jazz Right seat?
Thanks for all the input.
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Re: Captain requirements?
From a previous incident, one of the "Findings as to risk"...in this case Captain had 17000 hours...
To properly assess applicants for pilot positions, operators need access to information on experience and performance that is factual, objective, and (preferably) standardized. Transport Canada pilot records are not available to employers—this may lead to the appointment of pilots to positions for which they are unsuited, thereby compromising safety.
TSB Report Number A09W0037
This was also an issue in the Colgan Air crash with the Captain having failed 3 check rides before joining Colgan.
Attitude, experience, training, SOPS, audits and technology (new equipment) all play a part in keeping us safe. Unfortunately the system does not weed out the weak that well and things will get worse in a shortage I believe.
To properly assess applicants for pilot positions, operators need access to information on experience and performance that is factual, objective, and (preferably) standardized. Transport Canada pilot records are not available to employers—this may lead to the appointment of pilots to positions for which they are unsuited, thereby compromising safety.
TSB Report Number A09W0037
This was also an issue in the Colgan Air crash with the Captain having failed 3 check rides before joining Colgan.
Attitude, experience, training, SOPS, audits and technology (new equipment) all play a part in keeping us safe. Unfortunately the system does not weed out the weak that well and things will get worse in a shortage I believe.
Re: Captain requirements?
Nothing to be sorry about, from what I heard there's those who don't come prepared and it shows.KenoraPilot wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:26 amAMEN.....sorry I kinda figured that was implied by upgrade training. Its on you to be ready.....but figured everyone knew that.Air.Field wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:56 pmThe training is indeed top notch. That said, one has to put in effort in preparing and learning. The number of failures largely stems from those who think they'll be taught, or think they already know it all, which shows they are not ready for the left seat. There's more to it than checking the boxes.
Re: Captain requirements?
How many pilots does Jazz plan to hire in 2018 and how long to a left seat upgrade these days ?
Re: Captain requirements?
Probably about 6-8 months from new hire to upgrade course... Realistically you could have 1500tt and 500 on type, if you can hold the type you're on.