Jazz Reqiurements?

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FL-280
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#51 Post by FL-280 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:03 pm

radio wrote:Hi,

How about having some single engine turbine IFR (caravan) as a first officer, do they still require that multi turbine 2 crew environment or single turbine is fine?

Thanks !
250 multi is the new hard minimum.... used to be 500
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#52 Post by skypirate88 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:42 am

Each person I know that had an interview that low for TT had well over the 250PIC (most of them had MPIC) and the ATPL exams done.

It's also not just the upgrade, but AC right now requires (as per the last PML) 2000TT and an ATPL. So that's a good two years ish for a sub 1000 hour FO. If they can make it through the training at Jazz I would be happy to fly with any of them.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem going out to fly with these folks, I just question the direction we are moving with regards to recruitment. Perhaps it is an indication that the current offer isn't enough to entice more experienced drivers to join us.

Either way, good luck to everyone. It is a very good spot to be.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#53 Post by Orvlrite » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:50 am

Just heard a guy this week get a call from jazz just under 700 TT and 200mpic. I think at this point if you can fly a 705 machine and have multi/multi crew time you stand a reasonable chance at getting a call.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#54 Post by AviatPsy03 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:30 pm

flymore wrote:I was flying with the captain who interviewed me last year. He told me that as long as you have 750 hours and some operational IFR experience, you'll pretty much be hired.

I understand that the learning curve may be steep for someone coming in with lesser experience but that's all it is. It may be tougher to learn but not impossible. Follow your SOPs and always be willing to accept new knowledge.

For the people who are hating on the low experience pilots coming in, just accept the changing conditions of the industry and encourage and motivate the new candidates coming in. It is no one's fault that there is a pilot shortage, so just ACCEPT that this is how things are and work together to keep things safe and happy.

For the new candidates getting the opportunity to work for a 705 with low experience, appreciate it and enjoy the experience. When things come easy, it's hard to not get a sense of entitlement. Stay humble.

Good luck to everyone.
Thank you for your support to low timers. You seem to have a great personality, that is also very important. Fly safe!
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#55 Post by Radiocaster » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:21 am

At the end of the day, lack of experience we can cover with training. Beeing involved in training on the classic, I can say pretty much everybody gets reasonably confortable after a few pairings. If you have under 1500 TT, I would say, aim for that equipment and we'll have some fun. Because, it's your attitude toward this job and the way you make every collegue aroud you feel joyfull and relax that makes the difference. Good luck to everyone, looking foward to work with you if you fit that description.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#56 Post by Black_Tusk » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:11 am

FL-280 wrote:
radio wrote:Hi,

How about having some single engine turbine IFR (caravan) as a first officer, do they still require that multi turbine 2 crew environment or single turbine is fine?

Thanks !
250 multi is the new hard minimum.... used to be 500
Just to clarify that's PIC. Not just right seat multi time.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#57 Post by TheStig » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:30 am

I'm not sure I've read anything here where more experienced pilots are 'hating' low time pilots getting hired at Jazz, and I can't speak to what is being said on the line. For those of us that have been flying for a few decades, reading about pilots getting hired into 705 positions with hundreds of hours is pretty incredible. I'm not a big fan of the word entitlement, but when there are pilots who think Jazz should be jumping at the opportunity to hire them when they don't even hold an ATPL...well, it's hard to find a more appropriate descriptor.

I certainly agree that attitude is everything, that applies to everyone, senior/junior, high time/low time, etc. Just for discussions' sake though, I don't think atitude replaces experience. Reading some of the above posts, I can't help but get the impression that being an FO is regarded as an apprenticeship position, I'm sorry, it isn't. All the people skills that that Human Resources Departments love, aren't always appropriate for flight operations. Radiocaster, I certainly don't think it's my job to make all my colleagues joyful and relaxed, sometimes we have to say 'No', even if it hurts someone's feelings. That applies to First Officers too, something they aren't likely to do without the benefit of experience.

As the saying goes, good judgement comes for experience, experience come from bad judgment. My opinion is that the 705 carriers in Canada aren't hiring pilots with an enough experience.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#58 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:57 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:
FL-280 wrote:
radio wrote:Hi,

How about having some single engine turbine IFR (caravan) as a first officer, do they still require that multi turbine 2 crew environment or single turbine is fine?

Thanks !
250 multi is the new hard minimum.... used to be 500
Just to clarify that's PIC. Not just right seat multi time.
Doesn't seem to matter, I've seen both. Lots of guys with no pic at all, nevermind mpic, going to Jazz. As long as it is multi time. Even that I expect will change soon, PC12 guys might be in luck.

As far as TheStig's comments, Jazz certainly isn't the same company as it was 3, 5 or 10 years ago. Can't argue that they have the lowest hiring standards of any 705 regional in Canada. The others are typically 1500+ and usually an ATPL.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#59 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:00 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:
FL-280 wrote:
250 multi is the new hard minimum.... used to be 500
Just to clarify that's PIC. Not just right seat multi time.
Doesn't seem to matter, I've seen both. Lots of guys with no pic at all, nevermind mpic, going to Jazz. As long as it is multi time. Even that I expect will change soon, PC12 guys might be in luck.

As far as TheStig's comments, Jazz certainly isn't the same company as it was 3, 5 or 10 years ago. Can't argue that they have the lowest hiring standards of any 705 regional in Canada. The others are typically 1500+ and usually an ATPL.
Yes you are correct. There were a number of people in my groundschool who did not have PIC time but those pilots had well over 1500 hours. I am not that familiar with many people getting interviews with sub 1000 hours and no PIC time though. Do you know any?
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#60 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:33 pm

I know several. One was hired with 800tt and no pic time outside of cpl requirements. Several others have interviewed with less than 1000tt and no pic.

The cutoff seems to be some multi time in either seat from commercial operations. Doing well in the interview and sim eval of course too.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#61 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:47 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:I know several. One was hired with 800tt and no pic time outside of cpl requirements. Several others have interviewed with less than 1000tt and no pic.

The cutoff seems to be some multi time in either seat from commercial operations. Doing well in the interview and sim eval of course too.
Welp, I heard of someone now that has an interview with 600 hours. Times are changing.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#62 Post by EPR » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:27 pm

I think I'll wait and keep my 703 job until the U.S opens it's borders to ATPL rated Pilots, then I'll apply to FedEx, UPS, United, Hawaiian or American...in that order, and I don't think this isn't a reasonable expectation.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#63 Post by Splash » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:18 pm

I'm curious if anyone that's been around a long time can give me an idea of what the minimum requirements were 5,10,15 20 years ago. I know up until a few years ago FO's had to wait many years before they had a chance to upgrade to the left seat.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#64 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:46 pm

I wager upgrades will go at 8 months or less this bid. I wouldn't be surprised to see the RJ at under a year.

So while you may think it's worth it to wait for something that may never happen (USA opening the border), in less than a year you could be a Captain at Jazz making around $100k.

But hey, it's not like this hasn't been said before.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#65 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:46 pm

Splash wrote:I'm curious if anyone that's been around a long time can give me an idea of what the minimum requirements were 5,10,15 20 years ago. I know up until a few years ago FO's had to wait many years before they had a chance to upgrade to the left seat.
YVR was 15 years to the left seat on the -8.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#66 Post by North Shore » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:54 pm

Splash wrote:I'm curious if anyone that's been around a long time can give me an idea of what the minimum requirements were 5,10,15 20 years ago. I know up until a few years ago FO's had to wait many years before they had a chance to upgrade to the left seat.
LOL..a long time! Not Jazz specifically, but when I started out in the early 90's, Bearskin Airlines wanted 1500 and 500MPIC for right seat in a Navajo..
And when I met my PPL instructor in the concourse at YVR in 2007? 8? he was in the process of getting on at Emirates as the wait for LHS at Jazz was too long, and he'd already been there ~ 10 years..
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#67 Post by Stu Pidasso » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:07 am

Jazz has been hiring 250 hour Pilots, right from College, for years. It would seem to me if you are now hiring 1000 hr guys - they should be considered High Timers.

The industry is exploding for Pilots, enjoy the ride. Let's hope they open the border and all the young Pilots can apply to the US Majors. That will put a fast end to the starvation wages offered by the Canadian outfits and all the general aviation clowns that have been exploiting Pilots with ramp and dispatch jobs......

Can go straight to "Out of Business!" Poetic Justice
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#68 Post by rxl » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:32 pm

Austin Airways required 3500hrs TT for left seat in a Cessna 402 All Weather Fibreglass Intercepter back in the mid-eighties.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#69 Post by mbav8r » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:22 pm

Stu Pidasso wrote:Jazz has been hiring 250 hour Pilots, right from College, for years. It would seem to me if you are now hiring 1000 hr guys - they should be considered High Timers.

The industry is exploding for Pilots, enjoy the ride. Let's hope they open the border and all the young Pilots can apply to the US Majors. That will put a fast end to the starvation wages offered by the Canadian outfits and all the general aviation clowns that have been exploiting Pilots with ramp and dispatch jobs......

Can go straight to "Out of Business!" Poetic Justice
While I can appreciate what you're saying, the fact is Jazz was hiring 10 or so college grads per year based on the top performers in the graduating class, they were still hiring experienced pilots and as of lately that pool is drying up, now the majority is likely under 1500 hours but I don't know that I'm just guessing.
Just want to add something I heard the other day and I'm certain if somebody ran the number it would agree, a new hire pilot today will break even after three years when compared to pilots on the old contract and movement, and after eight years will be 50g ahead assuming they take the upgrade as soon as they can hold it.
My vintage, it was 9 years before I could even hold a left seat at any base and before me it was an even longer wait. As someone pointed out, this bid will likely upgrade some with 7-8 months in the company, which I believe was the entire intention of this new contract.
The second part of your post regarding them going straight out of business, couldn't agree more!
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#70 Post by dh89 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:04 am

I've just been offered a position at Jazz and when I got the initial call, I had about 1400 hours. by the time GS starts im over 1500. that includes over 1100 single engine piston. the rest is a mixture of turbo prop and jet. along with FE/SO time. I have a feeling i'd be around the low end when it comes to total time; but they probably look at the type of experience that you have as well. I understand that 5 years ago or so this opportunity would have been nothing but a pipe dream for me so I consider myself lucky to be here. It'll be fun being a student again. learning never ends. from what I hear it's a great place to work. hope this gives an example of what they look at. good luck to all yaw and fly safe!
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#71 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:27 pm

Requirements for an interview these days seem to be a heart beat and 500 hours. DH89, I think you'll find yourself one of the higher time pilots in your class.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#72 Post by JBI » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:23 am

EPR wrote:I think I'll wait and keep my 703 job until the U.S opens it's borders to ATPL rated Pilots, then I'll apply to FedEx, UPS, United, Hawaiian or American...in that order, and I don't think this isn't a reasonable expectation.
If you haven't already, you should spend some time reading airlinepilotforums for information on the industry in the US. My opinion (and I currently live in the US) is that flying 703 in Canada and then thinking you can jump to a US major is not a reasonable expectation. In the US, regional flying makes up almost 40% of the commercial flying and most of those regional pilots want to get on with a major. So while the regionals are desperate for pilots in the US, the majors are most certainly not. I obviously don't know your full experience, but you probably won't be all that competitive a candidate without some 705 / part 121 time.

Now, don't get me wrong, the regionals down here are now offering signing bonuses and training bonuses. For example, first year FO pay on a CRJ900 with Endeavor is now approaching $65,000 USD. Much better than it was a few years ago.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#73 Post by rudder » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:09 am

I would have to believe that Jazz requirements for relevant or total new-hire experience are either at or rapidly trending towards the lowest in the industry for a Part 705 operator.

Quick upgrades are certainly a perk. But the pilot has to have the ATPL license and pass the multiple levels of assessment. And the upgrade in many cases simply gets you a reserve block or a very unattractive junior flying line. All of the CA that were leaving Jazz in the PML are gone. There will be some FPML CA movement but these are also the most junior CA in the system. AC has shown no indication that Jazz will be growing as opposed to the other AC Express operators, but the rate of contraction has abated somewhat perhaps in part due to the inability of the other AC Express operators to accommodate growth.

I am not sure if the justification for hiring low experience pilots is part and parcel with the very low entry level pay and the resulting difficulty in being anybody's first choice when receiving multiple offers from other Part 705 operators. Regardless, status quo is just going to add up to many cancelled flights. Hopefully new-hire conditions will improve as will the applicant experience levels.

If I was AC, I would reconsider the strategy of competing Express flying bidders which will become self defeating as the pilot shortage continues and multiple Express operators compete in a dwindling pool of applicants. Instead look at consolidation under reasonable terms with a view to deriving the efficiencies of reduced redundant structures and economies of scale. A single long term CPA with a vendor with long term labour agreements and no strike provisions would create cost certainty and reliability which will be critical for AC as it continues to implement its long term commercial strategy.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#74 Post by rxl » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:31 am

rudder wrote:I would have to believe that Jazz requirements for relevant or total new-hire experience are either at or rapidly trending towards the lowest in the industry for a Part 705 operator.

Quick upgrades are certainly a perk. But the pilot has to have the ATPL license and pass the multiple levels of assessment. And the upgrade in many cases simply gets you a reserve block or a very unattractive junior flying line. All of the CA that were leaving Jazz in the PML are gone. There will be some FPML CA movement but these are also the most junior CA in the system. AC has shown no indication that Jazz will be growing as opposed to the other AC Express operators, but the rate of contraction has abated somewhat perhaps in part due to the inability of the other AC Express operators to accommodate growth.

I am not sure if the justification for hiring low experience pilots is part and parcel with the very low entry level pay and the resulting difficulty in being anybody's first choice when receiving multiple offers from other Part 705 operators. Regardless, status quo is just going to add up to many cancelled flights. Hopefully new-hire conditions will improve as will the applicant experience levels.

If I was AC, I would reconsider the strategy of competing Express flying bidders which will become self defeating as the pilot shortage continues and multiple Express operators compete in a dwindling pool of applicants. Instead look at consolidation under reasonable terms with a view to deriving the efficiencies of reduced redundant structures and economies of scale. A single long term CPA with a vendor with long term labour agreements and no strike provisions would create cost certainty and reliability which will be critical for AC as it continues to implement its long term commercial strategy.
It will remain to be seen if Mr. Rovenescu agrees with your strategy. It will, no doubt, have to be driven by the bottom line since he has spent the better part of the last 5 years or so deconstructing that very structure at Jazz.

The results from a reliability stand point have been less than ideal.
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Re: Jazz Reqiurements?

#75 Post by rudder » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:21 am

rxl wrote:
It will remain to be seen if Mr. Rovenescu agrees with your strategy. It will, no doubt, have to be driven by the bottom line since Thehe has spent the better part of the last 5 years or so deconstructing that very structure at Jazz.

The results from a reliability stand point have been less than ideal.
[/quote]

There is only one AC Express CPA operator that has commercial cost certainty for AC out to December 2025. I suspect that operator would be willing to extend that CPA with predictable costs for AC in exchange for increased fleet/revenue. And that operator is the only full service CPA carrier (dispatch/maintenance/training/commercial/human resources) and the only CPA operator with a national footprint.

With unionization at GGN, the medium and long term costs now become less predictable and will most certainly be going up. If history is the teacher, SKY will follow the same path. Regardless, predicting costs at GGN and SKY becomes increasingly unreliable the further that one looks out in to the future.

Therefore, if cost certainty and reliability are the two foremost concerns for AC when it comes to CPA capacity, then re-examining the strategy hatched in 2010 to diversify the CPA feed seems in order particularly in light of the developments in 2015 at Jazz which resulted in long term closed labour agreements and cost certainty for AC. It would appear that AC achieved its ultimate 2010 objective
to reduce and control the rate of increase in CPA expense and should now focus on the issue of reliability and offloading support functions that it is currently providing for both SKY and GGN which would not normally fall under the responsibility of the contracting mainline partner.

A consolidated Jazz/SKY/GGN Express fleet (B1900's excluded) would be only nominally larger than the Jazz Express fleet circa 2009 and could easily be accommodated using existing Jazz infrastructure. This would offload the aforementioned support obligations from AC, and provide more options for AC to deploy the consolidated Express assets across the country at locked in and predictable costs to 2025 and beyond.
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