Accruing seniority before you get on property?

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twinpratts
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Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#1 Post by twinpratts » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:29 am

I've been flying with a number of Captains who are under the impression that they can apply at Air Canada, get an acceptance letter, but stay at their current job, and wait it out for a couple years, all the while accruing seniority at AC...
These same bozos are also under the delusion that Air Canada will soon be banging their door down (when the 737 MAXes arrive in the near future) to be direct entry captains on the MAX, jumping the queue due to their current 737 PPCs, and membership in ALPA.
So my question for all you ACPA types is is there any conceivable way this is even remotely a possibility?
Thx
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#2 Post by rudder » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:53 am

ACPA allowed a temporary exception to the assignment of seniority (first day on the property) to OTS and PMLv1.0 pilots that allowed for an up to 24 month deferral with a reserved AC seniority number.

I presume that temporary measure will not apply to PMLv2.0 pilots or OTS pilots coincident with the expiry of PMLv1.0 deferral rights.

And there have been no DEC CA at AC since the old CRJ days. There are a few PMLv1.0 pilots that have been able to hold EMB CA after 1-2 years on the property. Junior 320 CA is at 4-5 years and junior 737 CA went much more senior. There have not been any unbid CA positions at AC since the 90's when the CRJ was placed in service.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#3 Post by indieadventurer » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:01 am

I don't work at Air Canada but from talking to colleagues there it sounds like these guys have no idea what they're talking about.

In PML 1.0 I believe Jazz pilots could defer for up to 2 years and accrue seniority. I'd be surprised if that's an option to OTS or PML 2.0 pilots.

The 737 MAX positions will be filled like any other vacancy at AC, through seniority. As of now from what I understand all captain positions have been filled internally in the latest bid.

And what good would coming from an ALPA shop do? Tell them to give their heads a shake.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#4 Post by Rowdy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:28 am

The deferral was offered to those OTS folk who were made offers during the original PML.

PML 2.0 has no deferral option. OTS does not have the option now either.

ALPA is not ACPA. Nobody will be beating down any doors to hire, especially DEC's at AC. From the looks of it, AC is confident that it can continue on its present heading and slow the PML 2.0 hiring to keep Jazz,SKR and GGN staffed by increasing OTS hiring.

I would not be surprised if AC started to pilfer Encore though...
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#5 Post by atphat » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:32 pm

There has been DEC at AC in the past. And there very well could be some in the future. Providing the position remains unbid it will be available to a new hire. (Probably not from PIT but the first subsequent bid). always seems to be confusion about this process for some reason???
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#6 Post by fish4life » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:42 pm

Based on the EMB CA seniority the OTS guy that accepted and deferred a year and a half ago could probably take a DEC EMB spot because their seniority would hold that though.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#7 Post by Jimmy_Hoffa » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:43 am

fish4life wrote:Based on the EMB CA seniority the OTS guy that accepted and deferred a year and a half ago could probably take a DEC EMB spot because their seniority would hold that though.
No! This is not how it works. In your initial PIT course, the company has a list of positions for that course. You do not get to pick from anything other than what is on that list. Period. After that, you are frozen for 4 years, which at the discretion of the company, can be lifted to allow you to bid a higher rated position. If your seniority can hold it. So if someone had deferred for two years and then came, they would bossibly be able to hold an EMJ Ca spot on one of the regular equipment bids with their seniority #, as it stands right now. They could not get DEC, unless by chance they timed their hiring with an equipment and the company decided not to train them on what they had picked in their PIT course. And even if they did, it's just an expedited process of what I just explained.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#8 Post by atphat » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:48 am

Jimmy_Hoffa wrote:
fish4life wrote:Based on the EMB CA seniority the OTS guy that accepted and deferred a year and a half ago could probably take a DEC EMB spot because their seniority would hold that though.
No! This is not how it works. In your initial PIT course, the company has a list of positions for that course. You do not get to pick from anything other than what is on that list. Period. After that, you are frozen for 4 years, which at the discretion of the company, can be lifted to allow you to bid a higher rated position. If your seniority can hold it. So if someone had deferred for two years and then came, they would bossibly be able to hold an EMJ Ca spot on one of the regular equipment bids with their seniority #, as it stands right now. They could not get DEC, unless by chance they timed their hiring with an equipment and the company decided not to train them on what they had picked in their PIT course. And even if they did, it's just an expedited process of what I just explained.
Not entirely correct either. Lol.
When bidding a higher rated position, ie CA, you are automatically released from your new hire freeze. It is NOT at the discretion of the company.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#9 Post by loopa » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:10 pm

How are guys with less than 6 months seniority holding 787 FO? Up until recently it was several years in ...
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#10 Post by PROC_HDG » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:21 pm

loopa wrote:How are guys with less than 6 months seniority holding 787 FO? Up until recently it was several years in ...
Retirements and expansion.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#11 Post by altiplano » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:47 pm

atphat wrote:
Jimmy_Hoffa wrote:
fish4life wrote:Based on the EMB CA seniority the OTS guy that accepted and deferred a year and a half ago could probably take a DEC EMB spot because their seniority would hold that though.
No! This is not how it works. In your initial PIT course, the company has a list of positions for that course. You do not get to pick from anything other than what is on that list. Period. After that, you are frozen for 4 years, which at the discretion of the company, can be lifted to allow you to bid a higher rated position. If your seniority can hold it. So if someone had deferred for two years and then came, they would bossibly be able to hold an EMJ Ca spot on one of the regular equipment bids with their seniority #, as it stands right now. They could not get DEC, unless by chance they timed their hiring with an equipment and the company decided not to train them on what they had picked in their PIT course. And even if they did, it's just an expedited process of what I just explained.
Not entirely correct either. Lol.
When bidding a higher rated position, ie CA, you are automatically released from your new hire freeze. It is NOT at the discretion of the company.
Almost... bidding to a Captain position... not just any higher rated position...
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#12 Post by atphat » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:23 pm

That's what I said. :D

Edit: as it might not be obvious to the masses. A "higher rated position" may sound fancy to pilots. To the company that means a captain position, and only a captain position.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#13 Post by Fanblade » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:23 pm

twinpratts wrote:I've been flying with a number of Captains who are under the impression that they can apply at Air Canada, get an acceptance letter, but stay at their current job, and wait it out for a couple years, all the while accruing seniority at AC...
These same bozos are also under the delusion that Air Canada will soon be banging their door down (when the 737 MAXes arrive in the near future) to be direct entry captains on the MAX, jumping the queue due to their current 737 PPCs, and membership in ALPA.
So my question for all you ACPA types is is there any conceivable way this is even remotely a possibility?
Thx
Shhhh!


Those are a couple of captains your not competing with for a job at AC.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#14 Post by Jimmy_Hoffa » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:10 am

PROC_HDG wrote:
loopa wrote:How are guys with less than 6 months seniority holding 787 FO? Up until recently it was several years in ...
Retirements and expansion.
More like course rights. People are being way more selective about when and where they live, as nice there are only a limited number of times you can.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#15 Post by JBI » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:29 am

Jimmy_Hoffa wrote:
PROC_HDG wrote:
loopa wrote:How are guys with less than 6 months seniority holding 787 FO? Up until recently it was several years in ...
Retirements and expansion.
More like course rights. People are being way more selective about when and where they live, as nice there are only a limited number of times you can.
On that note, anybody able to provide a run down on the conditions of changing equipment?

Other examples:
if you're on mainline 320 but want to go rouge 319/321 does that burn one of your options?
What about YYZ 787 to YVR 787?
And, what if you were on the EMJ but they end up retiring the fleet? Do you get a "free" equipment change?
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#16 Post by groundpilot » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:13 am

JBI wrote:
Jimmy_Hoffa wrote:
PROC_HDG wrote:
Retirements and expansion.
More like course rights. People are being way more selective about when and where they live, as nice there are only a limited number of times you can.
On that note, anybody able to provide a run down on the conditions of changing equipment?

Other examples:
if you're on mainline 320 but want to go rouge 319/321 does that burn one of your options?
What about YYZ 787 to YVR 787?
And, what if you were on the EMJ but they end up retiring the fleet? Do you get a "free" equipment change?
It's a bit complicated with more complications in the works...

However, essentially you get one of each position:

-RP
- Narrow body FO
- Wide body FO
- NB Capt
- WB Capt

1 Unrestricted

And you can go A320 to Rouge 319 for free but you are held there after for a bit.

You burn one off your new hire course - usually your NB FO
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#17 Post by TheStig » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:50 am

JBI wrote:
Jimmy_Hoffa wrote:
PROC_HDG wrote:
Retirements and expansion.
More like course rights. People are being way more selective about when and where they live, as nice there are only a limited number of times you can.
On that note, anybody able to provide a run down on the conditions of changing equipment?

Other examples:
if you're on mainline 320 but want to go rouge 319/321 does that burn one of your options?
What about YYZ 787 to YVR 787?
And, what if you were on the EMJ but they end up retiring the fleet? Do you get a "free" equipment change?
New hires are paid the same hourly rate for all FO and RP positions, there are about 500 pilots on fixed rates. Some positions like 787 FO in YUL and YYZ are being awarded to junior pilots right now because pilots who are senior are passing on those positions while they are on fixed pay rates. For example; if you were a 787 RP working 9 days a month why bid 787 FO and end up at the bottom of the list working 16-18 (and every weekend) for the same income?

If you bid to a Captains position, once you complete your training you are removed from the fixed pay rates and are paid in accordance to the Captains pay scale for your aircraft. EMJ Captain has had a history of being fairly junior at times and being awarded to pilots with one year of service isn't totally unheard of. There are obviously large numbers of pilots who have flowed through from Jazz on the first PML who are having their wages topped up to what they were earning at Jazz. While some have bid EMJ Captain for a slight raise, most are enjoying relatively good seniority and lifestyles and collecting their top-up. This has opened the window for the 20% of the pilots hired from outside of Jazz who aren't receiving a top up to bid EMJ Captain (in YYZ)

As mentioned, ML to LCC or vice versa doesn't require a course right. There is a 2 year freeze from bidding back to your previous position, but not other positions.

Switching bases on the same type doesn't use a course right.

If a pilot is reduced from their position they receive a 'Free' course, if a senior pilot wishes they can bid to take a reduction from a junior pilot for a free course. There are constant changes in the various positions at AC even without the actual numbers of aircraft changing in the fleet. For example on the latest bid the 777 positions in YUL were removed and 787 positions were added, while in YYZ the rouge 767 positions shrunk by 10 despite the fleet staying at 25 fins, this is because the LCC 767 isn't as busy over the winter as it is in the summer. There have been big changes too over the past few years, such as shifting all EMJ positions to YYZ, all A330 positions to YUL, removing the LCC 319 from YVR and doubling the mainline 320 fleet. I'm not sure the introduction of course rights in 2012 has resulted in much of a savings in training costs with the constant eb and flow of positions.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#18 Post by JBI » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:40 am

Thanks for the info!
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#19 Post by aV1aTOr » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:48 pm

twinpratts wrote:I've been flying with a number of Captains who are under the impression that they can apply at Air Canada, get an acceptance letter, but stay at their current job, and wait it out for a couple years, all the while accruing seniority at AC...
These same bozos are also under the delusion that Air Canada will soon be banging their door down (when the 737 MAXes arrive in the near future) to be direct entry captains on the MAX, jumping the queue due to their current 737 PPCs, and membership in ALPA.
So my question for all you ACPA types is is there any conceivable way this is even remotely a possibility?
Thx
Heard this one somewhere else as well :lol:
I can just see it, ACPA sending flowers and thank you cards to new hires for bringing their PPCs on property to help everyone out. "jumping the queue" smells like regret to me....
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#20 Post by Flash8 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:15 pm

For those that didnt have the option to defer to accrue seniority, what is life on reserve like?

Days off per month, reserve time periods, next day bidding etc
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#21 Post by PROC_HDG » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:43 am

Flash8 wrote:For those that didnt have the option to defer to accrue seniority, what is life on reserve like?

Days off per month, reserve time periods, next day bidding etc
Widebody/RP Reserve is a lot easier as you have a pretty good idea of where the fleet is and it is rare to get a short call. Narrowbody reserve is an especially sick form of torture.

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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#22 Post by Monorail Conductor » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:59 am

How bad could it be? Im definitely interested in hearing what makes reserve at AC torturous.

For comparison, I purposely bid Reserve at jazz despite being able to hold a block. Sometimes can score a few extra days at home, and plenty of wdo opportunity when pairings go into a day off as they quite often do given than were short on the reserve roster.
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Re: Accruing seniority before you get on property?

#23 Post by rudder » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:19 am

Monorail Conductor wrote:How bad could it be? Im definitely interested in hearing what makes reserve at AC torturous.
.
It is all articulated in the ACPA collective agreement. If that is too convoluted a read, just ask an AC pilot who has been on reserve and they can explain it. Widely held belief is that reserve duty at AC is udesireable from a lifestyle perspective. Half of the 12 scheduled days off are considered unprotected and floating. And if you are off salary, monthly pay guarantees are lower and the blockholder annual hours pay guarantee does not apply to reserve schedule holders. This is the main reason that Rouge positions are desirable for junior pilots (no reserve).

The good news is that the proposed changes to reserve duty rules and reserve rest in the CAR's will offer some relief to the existing AC reserve conditions.
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