Air Transat YOW

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Eric Janson
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Eric Janson »

photofly wrote: The aircraft wasn't "such" an aircraft as it wasn't being serviced, so your charge fails at the first test. Do I (personally) care if the aircraft is disabled or not? Couldn't care less at that point - because I'm leaving it.

And, I'm not advocating the whole aircraft to evacuate via a slide. Just me. I'm not responsible for how and whether everyone else gets off, that's your job. To the extent that you're not able to look after my comfort and safety, then I will. Everyone else can make up their own minds about whether they want to stay on board or not, and act accordingly.

As for whether it's deliberate or not - if you're incompetent at keeping me safe and comfortable I don't really give a damn if it's because you can't or just won't. Impotent or malicious, it's all the same to me.
I'm not a legal expert but it seems to me that paragraph 2 refers to a parked aircraft with engines shut down.

As for the rest of your post - a nice example of the current state of our society. The wonderful results of Post Modernism and Cultural Marxism.

I've heard it referred to as The New Age of Narcissism - very apt description.

In your example your actions would result in problems for everybody else. But it's all about you.

I would suggest your fellow passengers would also be able to bring charges against you in this situation - even if the Airline declines to prosecute.

As if my job isn't already difficult enough.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

Eric Janson wrote: I'm not a legal expert but it seems to me that paragraph 2 refers to a parked aircraft with engines shut down.
It's clear it refers to an airplane undergoing maintenance. Not one with passengers on board whose engines are shut down because the crew ran the tanks dry.
As for the rest of your post - a nice example of the current state of our society.
Actually it's an example of nothing other than my projected state of mind after six stationary hours in a 32" seat, the last part of which with no water, air conditioning or toilets. By that stage, I don't think I'm going to care what you think of me or society, or anything much all. I'm sorry you don't get that.
As if my job isn't already difficult enough.
It's not my role to make your job easy. It's your job to make my travel experience easy.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by TFTMB heavy »

It's quite obvious that many of you have no idea what international operations are like and have never been in a situation like this, it's not fun. Things are never as black and white and when faced with a plane full of pax at your alternate and the possibility of duty being exceeded. The best place to have those pax is usually on the plane ready to head to the final destination. I'm not saying to keep pax in an airplane at any cost but when you keep being told you will be able to leave soon the prospect of unloading the pax, having them clear customs and ALL come back to board and not have to pull bags (a nightmare at best) and do head counts and figure out who decided to switch seats... you get the picture (some of you do).

Sure pull a slide, have you ever been down one? I have, an old slide that was worn out and slow compared to a fleshly popped one and it was a ride! This is the worse way to exit an aircraft and for emergencies only. Nobody in their right mind opens an aircraft door without being authorized.

As captain you can call it quits anytime you feel justified to do so but be ready to explain yourself after. You will also have to wait for someone to come replace you. That can be a while when out of base and nobody there to take over for you.

As much as we bitch about the media not getting things right on aviation, I have to say the worse critics are other pilots with even less info than the media.

We might not always get it right at Air Transat but I'm still very proud to work there!
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

TFTMB heavy wrote:It's quite obvious that many of you have no idea what international operations are like and have never been in a situation like this, it's not fun. Things are never as black and white and when faced with a plane full of pax at your alternate and the possibility of duty being exceeded. The best place to have those pax is usually on the plane ready to head to the final destination. I'm not saying to keep pax in an airplane at any cost but when you keep being told you will be able to leave soon the prospect of unloading the pax, having them clear customs and ALL come back to board and not have to pull bags (a nightmare at best) and do head counts and figure out who decided to switch seats... you get the picture (some of you do).

Sure pull a slide, have you ever been down one? I have, an old slide that was worn out and slow compared to a fleshly popped one and it was a ride! This is the worse way to exit an aircraft and for emergencies only. Nobody in their right mind opens an aircraft door without being authorized.

As captain you can call it quits anytime you feel justified to do so but be ready to explain yourself after. You will also have to wait for someone to come replace you. That can be a while when out of base and nobody there to take over for you.

As much as we bitch about the media not getting things right on aviation, I have to say the worse critics are other pilots with even less info than the media.

We might not always get it right at Air Transat but I'm still very proud to work there!
All reasonable comments to me, TFT.

One question then: Over and above delays and fuel, YOW says water / food service was offered to the aircraft. Why at least didn't they accept this offer?

Do you personally agree with that decision, per your statement you're proud to work for AT?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by TFTMB heavy »

rookiepilot wrote:
TFTMB heavy wrote:It's quite obvious that many of you have no idea what international operations are like and have never been in a situation like this, it's not fun. Things are never as black and white and when faced with a plane full of pax at your alternate and the possibility of duty being exceeded. The best place to have those pax is usually on the plane ready to head to the final destination. I'm not saying to keep pax in an airplane at any cost but when you keep being told you will be able to leave soon the prospect of unloading the pax, having them clear customs and ALL come back to board and not have to pull bags (a nightmare at best) and do head counts and figure out who decided to switch seats... you get the picture (some of you do).

Sure pull a slide, have you ever been down one? I have, an old slide that was worn out and slow compared to a fleshly popped one and it was a ride! This is the worse way to exit an aircraft and for emergencies only. Nobody in their right mind opens an aircraft door without being authorized.

As captain you can call it quits anytime you feel justified to do so but be ready to explain yourself after. You will also have to wait for someone to come replace you. That can be a while when out of base and nobody there to take over for you.

As much as we bitch about the media not getting things right on aviation, I have to say the worse critics are other pilots with even less info than the media.

We might not always get it right at Air Transat but I'm still very proud to work there!
All reasonable comments to me, TFT.

One question then: Over and above delays and fuel, YOW says water / food service was offered to the aircraft. Why at least didn't they accept this offer?

Do you personally agree with that decision, per your statement you're proud to work for AT?
I wasn't there so I can't comment on wether it was offered or even available for that matter.

What I think is that everyone is in ass covering mode because this will likely end up in court one way or another.

Whether Air Transat is at fault or not it doesn't change the fact that I am proud to work there. Air Transat, part of group Transat, has been around for 30 years taking people on holidays as a charter operator. The longest standing charter operator in Canada, they've survived many others and are still around, must be doing something right!
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Old fella »

Of course AT will get over this embarrassing situation, bet ''tis forgotten in short order. Nothing a very good discounted vacation package wouldn't cure and perhaps AT has that just in the nick of time. Even the most ardent " emergency chute and door" poppers of the Six hour duration would be in there like a pair of dirty shorts if the price was real good. Our good buds Photofly and Rookiepilot........ I can seem them now crawling around the hills of Siena quaffing quality Chianti Classico and Brunello di Montalcino- the six hr taramac be dammed- on a steeply discounted AT package. AT does go to Rome which is south of the quaffing area in question , bet you knew that though.

:partyman: :supz: :drinkers:
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Eric Janson
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Eric Janson »

photofly wrote:
Eric Janson wrote: I'm not a legal expert but it seems to me that paragraph 2 refers to a parked aircraft with engines shut down.
It's clear it refers to an airplane undergoing maintenance. Not one with passengers on board whose engines are shut down because the crew ran the tanks dry.
That's not correct - the term 'servicing' refers to getting an aircraft ready for flight.

This includes things like Catering/Cleaning/Fuelling and is normally done with the aircraft parked at a stand or gate.

This can be done in combination with boarding passengers or with passengers already on board.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by aerosexual »

TFTMB heavy, I appreciate your posts, I wish there were a "like" function. I honestly think the ball was dropped in this situation by somebody somewhere, but overall you should be proud to work for Air Transat, as they do a great job day in and day out. After all the finger pointing is done, hopefully we can find out what could have been done better to avoid a situation like this from happening again.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Old fella wrote:Of course AT will get over this embarrassing situation, bet ''tis forgotten in short order. Nothing a very good discounted vacation package wouldn't cure and perhaps AT has that just in the nick of time. Even the most ardent " emergency chute and door" poppers of the Six hour duration would be in there like a pair of dirty shorts if the price was real good. Our good buds Photofly and Rookiepilot........ I can seem them now crawling around the hills of Siena quaffing quality Chianti Classico and Brunello di Montalcino- the six hr taramac be dammed- on a steeply discounted AT package. AT does go to Rome which is south of the quaffing area in question , bet you knew that though.

:partyman: :supz: :drinkers:
Actually I'm in Europe right now, OF.

I don't fly AT, among a few other airlines. Far too many issues for my liking, and time and aggravation are worth far more than saving 50 bucks. I don't even consider them, even if it was free.

As I've said before, almost every European and Asian airline trumps the best of anything Canada has to offer, in service, reliability, courtesy, and safety too. And that's a fact.

As for this, we should have European regs. This kind of thing doesn't happen in Europe (despite far, far more air traffic) because the fines levied would be through the roof.

Canada is spineless as they don't either enact regs nor enforce those in place.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

You don't spend a lot of time on Ryan Air, or Easyjet, then.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:You don't spend a lot of time on Ryan Air, or Easyjet, then.
Correct. It's called trains, when practical. Far more interesting, and civilized too. Try it sometime.
:mrgreen:

I did do one easyjet flight cause it was direct. Pay for literally everything, but friendly, on time, no issues.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote:
photofly wrote:You don't spend a lot of time on Ryan Air, or Easyjet, then.
Correct. It's called trains, when practical. Far more interesting, and civilized too. Try it sometime.
:mrgreen:

I did do one easyjet flight cause it was direct. Pay for literally everything, but friendly, on time, no issues.
After four decades of British Rail and the London Underground - no thanks.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by complexintentions »

Let me guess...you were banned for pulling the emergency brake handle in a hissy fit?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

Not yet.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Hearing today:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3709996/air-t ... s-testify/

http://www.bnn.ca/ground-crews-detail-d ... s-1.843948


OTTAWA -- The captain of one of two Air Transat flights that was forced to sit for hours on a sweltering Ottawa tarmac last month said Thursday he considered keeping passengers aboard the delayed aircraft to be the lesser of two evils.

Allowing passengers to disembark would have only made additional delays more likely, as opposed to the 30 minutes he was repeatedly being told it would take to refuel, Yves Saint-Laurent told Canadian Transportation Agency hearings in Ottawa.

What's more, it would have taken additional hours to get everyone off the plane and then find a fleet of buses to transport them to a hotel for the night or to Montreal, the plane's ultimate destination.

Denis Lussier, who was piloting the other flight, said he, too, was repeatedly told the wait to refuel would only be 30 minutes more. Both pilots cited a series of circumstances beyond their control -- other planes jumping the refuelling queue, as well as delays getting and connecting external power generators -- that only made matters worse.

Saint-Laurent said he would have made different decisions had he known the delay would last more than three hours. Nonetheless, he said, most passengers expressed their gratitude to him after they arrived in Montreal.

"The next day, I saw what I would call the media circus," Saint-Laurent told the hearing.

"I was shocked, surprised because I would say that most of the passengers who left the aircraft in Montreal that night said, 'Thank you."'
[/
b]

This is a good quote:

"The experience of the conditions on board the grounded flights, however, was a “matter of perception,” said Matthew Jackson, the director of flight safety for Air Transat, when asked whether the pilots were aware of how passengers were feeling.

“If I’m managing a delay and I’m talking to a passenger who’s a very nervous flyer, a 15-minute delay may be a terrible thing for that passenger,” Jackson told the hearing. “Their perception is different than the frequent flyer … who’s used to delays.”

The flight safety director further suggested the pilots might have even been hotter than some passengers on account of the polyester uniforms they wear.

“I’m not traveling in shorts and sandals and a T-shirt,” he said. “So I think I would probably feel the heat a little bit more than some travellers.”

During Wednesday’s testimony, passengers told officials they would have given anything to be allowed off the planes, even if only to face further delays or long drives home.

Jackson, Air Transat’s flight safety director, said there was almost no way to accomplish that safely.

“The only way I’m going to let 360 people out on the runway is … because I have a fire on board the aircraft or a bomb threat,” he said. “I’m not deplaning on a runway for fun.”


from Cbc:

"It would have been a logistical and financial challenge — but not an impossibility — to stop in Ottawa, he said".

TS507 eventually spent five hours on the Ottawa airport's tarmac, with passengers telling the hearing there was no air conditioning on board and people were throwing up from the heat and anxiety.

Saint-Laurent said otherwise, claiming the air conditioning was working for all but a minute or two when they were on the ground.



Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

"Almost no way to accomplish that safely."

Interesting choice of words.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote:
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
I'm sure none of the passengers asked the captain for a drink either. That's usually the stuff you ask flight attendants, no?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Braun »

digits_ wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
I'm sure none of the passengers asked the captain for a drink either. That's usually the stuff you ask flight attendants, no?
Wouldn't an FA advise the flight director in that case?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by digits_ »

Braun wrote:
digits_ wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:
Besides, Saint-Laurent said, no passengers asked him to get off. Flight director Julie Clermont said the same thing.
I'm sure none of the passengers asked the captain for a drink either. That's usually the stuff you ask flight attendants, no?
Wouldn't an FA advise the flight director in that case?
Hopefully, yes, but the quotes indicate that they use the fact that none of the passengers asked them directly to get of the plane, as an argument that things weren't bad.

They'd never ask them directly. How would you even talk to the flight director as a passenger?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Passenger side of things:

https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/0 ... elays.html


OTTAWA—Passengers who were trapped aboard two Air Transat jets earlier this summer described hours on end of sweltering heat, a lack of water and the stench of vomit in the cabin as a federal agency began hearings Wednesday into their ordeal.

One witness said she saw flight attendants outside on the Ottawa tarmac taking selfies alongside one stranded plane amid widespread confusion over the July 31 delays — six hours in one case, five in the other.

Another witness described a young boy running down the aisle for the toilets in the rear of the plane, but vomiting in the aisle and on passengers before he could make it to the bathrooms.

Read more:Passengers confined to plane on Ottawa runway for six hours, woman says

One by one, passengers told members of the Canadian Transportation Agency, the agency investigating the incidents, that they would have given anything to be allowed off the planes, even if only to face further delays or long drives home.

They described feeling treated like cargo by the airline, rather than as human beings and accused the carrier of being more concerned about getting the planes in the air than it was about the health and safety of its customers.
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