Rumor about %30 pay increase

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
Pt6-42
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:12 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#26 Post by Pt6-42 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:24 pm

So the union is trying to match jazz fo wage year one to wje fo wage year one. Any truth to this?
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
KenoraPilot
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 500
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#27 Post by KenoraPilot » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:55 pm

What is the WJE first year FO wage? Cause they sure don't have the contract we have.
---------- ADS -----------

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1373
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#28 Post by fish4life » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:10 pm

$42.73
---------- ADS -----------

CanadianEh
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:00 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#29 Post by CanadianEh » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:26 am

I also heard Porter is significantly sweetening the pot (pay, retention bonuses and higher RRSP matching). We are finally seeing some gains as a pilot group
---------- ADS -----------

dhc#
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:38 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#30 Post by dhc# » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:44 am

:prayer: Supply and Demand :prayer:
---------- ADS -----------

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#31 Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:25 am

Pt6-42 wrote:So the union is trying to match jazz fo wage year one to wje fo wage year one. Any truth to this?
If they are trying to match Encores pay, that is still lower than what the rumored %30 increase would have been. If it was in fact offered by the company, they should have taken it then.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
KenoraPilot
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 500
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#32 Post by KenoraPilot » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:14 am

Ok I'll start this with "I'm being the Devils Advocate" and say that the company made their bed now they have to lay in it. They started this process with a B Scale and now they are running out of quality pilots who want to come and work for it. They maybe should have had some forethought vs. being "cost conscious". So I kind of get the Unions point of view saying that they started this, if they want to raise salaries I believe everyone deserves a little bit of the pie. My suggestions is FO's see a good raise, and Captains as well see a raise but smaller one. Maybe fight for some J Class auto upgrades for ALL pilots regardless of date of hire. But thats another one of my rants, i'll save for a later date. (This is all my personal opinion and FYI I am not on the FPML and have no intention of going to Big Red.)
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Boreas
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:06 pm
Location: The haunted corners of familiar rooms

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#33 Post by Boreas » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:31 am

I heard GGN is gunning for 35% - 40% increase...

It will probably still work out to less than what Jazz is offering though :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------

iflyroads
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:50 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#34 Post by iflyroads » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:03 pm

Boreas wrote:I heard GGN is gunning for 35% - 40% increase...

It will probably still work out to less than what Jazz is offering though :mrgreen:
HAHAHAHAHA I wouldn't hold your breath.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Grey_Wolf
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:23 pm

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#35 Post by Grey_Wolf » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:02 pm

CanadianEh wrote:I also heard Porter is significantly sweetening the pot (pay, retention bonuses and higher RRSP matching). We are finally seeing some gains as a pilot group
All depends on your definition of significant:

Here are some details that I've heard.

- Annual Cost of Living Scale Indexing (Based on rolling 10 year average, currently at 1.63%), effective Jan 2018
- Year 1 FO Currently 42,782 based on on 85 Credits; Jan 2018 = 43,479
- Year 1 CA currently 77,749 based on 85 Credits; Jan 2018 = 79,016

- OT paid at 1.5x over 85; 3x on GDO/VAC till Mid-Sept 2017
- Elimination of Credit Cap till Nov 2017 (normally sits around 100-105)

- No Change in Per Diem; 3$ CDN per hour, from duty start to duty end, including overnights (TAFB)

- 4 Initial FO Classes, Aug 2017-Dec 2017 (40 spots)
- 3 Upgrade CA Classes, Aug 2017-Dec 2017 (38 Spots)

- RRSP matching up to 9%, based on YOS.
- 4 Years and less = 5%; add a year, add 1%

- One-Time Retention Bonus ( 2 or 3 year commitment)
- 2 Year gets you 3 months base salary at scale level at end of term
- 3 Year gets you 6 months, also at scale level at end of term
- Offer to those hired before Jan 2018

- 2 Year CA bonus range: 20k -29k (15 year scale), 3 Year CA bonus range: 41k-59k
- 2 Year FO bonus range: 12k-18k (10 year scale), 3 Year FO bonus range: 28k-37k

- Example: New FO gets hired on, Promoted within 12 months, at end of 3 year term, is at scale level 2 for CA: Bonus of 42k, detail to follow on taxation and/or option to invest in RRSP

- Commuting Policy, details to be confirmed, effective Jan 2018

- Part-Time Pilot Positions, details to be confirmed, effective Jan 2018

- Internal Reference Bonus of 2k paid to referring pilot, when recruit reaches Year 2
---------- ADS -----------
"A good traveller has no fixed plan and is not intent on arriving." -Lao Tzu

dhc#
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:38 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#36 Post by dhc# » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:56 am

So Porter is the "canary in the coal mine", how long before this template has to be implemented at Jazz/SkyR/Georgian/Encore ???
---------- ADS -----------

FL-280
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#37 Post by FL-280 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:01 am

Ain't we loving that 10 year contract eh!!?!?
---------- ADS -----------

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#38 Post by Black_Tusk » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:07 am

FL-280 wrote:Ain't we loving that 10 year contract eh!!?!?
Everything is always negotiable.
---------- ADS -----------

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#39 Post by mbav8r » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:12 am

FL-280 wrote:Ain't we loving that 10 year contract eh!!?!?
So, what's your point?
Do you realize if the company needs something from us, the 10 year contract does not stop them from offering more, it only prevents us from asking for improvements that aren't cost neutral.
Take a look at the AC opener under discussion right now, AC needed something and offered improvements to work rules and pension, certainly not cost neutral!
---------- ADS -----------

Alcoholism
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#40 Post by Alcoholism » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:05 am

Kudos to Porter
---------- ADS -----------

All DAY EVERY DAY
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#41 Post by All DAY EVERY DAY » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:28 pm

Now they are inviting new hires to tell them WTF is wrong with the place...Wow
---------- ADS -----------

Tail-Chaser
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:24 pm

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#42 Post by Tail-Chaser » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:22 pm

All DAY EVERY DAY wrote:Now they are inviting new hires to tell them WTF is wrong with the place...Wow
I volunteered. I'm just curious; do they think that the social media presence is the issue? It's all numbers! Pay! Days off! Pension! Benefits! It's not hard to attract people when the numbers are right.
---------- ADS -----------

rudder
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1495
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#43 Post by rudder » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:25 pm

Tail-Chaser wrote:
All DAY EVERY DAY wrote:Now they are inviting new hires to tell them WTF is wrong with the place...Wow
I volunteered. I'm just curious; do they think that the social media presence is the issue? It's all numbers! Pay! Days off! Pension! Benefits! It's not hard to attract people when the numbers are right.
Jazz pilots are ALPA represented. If Jazz were to attempt to survey the Jazz pilots (including new-hires) about WAWCON which is properly the purview of collective bargaining, then it is a de facto attempt to circumvent the certified bargaining agent and would represent a potential unfair labour practice under the Canada Labour Code.

It is likely simply about social media presence and attracting applicants. Hard to believe but true.
---------- ADS -----------

flyer 1492
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:55 pm

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#44 Post by flyer 1492 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:20 pm

Hmmmm...How about offering more money?
---------- ADS -----------

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#45 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:25 pm

rudder wrote:
Tail-Chaser wrote: attracting applicants. Hard to believe but true.
1) Raise the starting pay %20-30
2) 2x or 3x WDO pay
3) Lower the average days worked/month, even if it's just a day or two
4) Stop sticking everyone in YUL initially for 4-6 months when there are vacancies at all bases.

I think even just number 4 alone would attract a few more people. But pay is the number one. I am not going to WDO myself very often at only 1.5x on year one or two pay.

I noticed American Airlines posts the anticipated retirements per year out to 2030 or so. If Jazz did that, I think a lot of people would consider coming here if saw on paper the huge amount of retirements in the pipeline.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Inverted2
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1873
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#46 Post by Inverted2 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:13 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:
rudder wrote:
Tail-Chaser wrote: attracting applicants. Hard to believe but true.
1) Raise the starting pay %20-30
2) 2x or 3x WDO pay
3) Lower the average days worked/month, even if it's just a day or two
4) Stop sticking everyone in YUL initially for 4-6 months when there are vacancies at all bases.

I think even just number 4 alone would attract a few more people. But pay is the number one. I am not going to WDO myself very often at only 1.5x on year one or two pay.

I noticed American Airlines posts the anticipated retirements per year out to 2030 or so. If Jazz did that, I think a lot of people would consider coming here if saw on paper the huge amount of retirements in the pipeline.
There's a list of retirements per year out to 2026 on the Jazz MEC site under pension/retirement. They don't really start kicking in until about 2021. Then it's about 40-50 a year. Only 15 next year.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Rowdy
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4798
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#47 Post by Rowdy » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:10 pm

Inverted2 wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:
rudder wrote:
1) Raise the starting pay %20-30
2) 2x or 3x WDO pay
3) Lower the average days worked/month, even if it's just a day or two
4) Stop sticking everyone in YUL initially for 4-6 months when there are vacancies at all bases.

I think even just number 4 alone would attract a few more people. But pay is the number one. I am not going to WDO myself very often at only 1.5x on year one or two pay.

I noticed American Airlines posts the anticipated retirements per year out to 2030 or so. If Jazz did that, I think a lot of people would consider coming here if saw on paper the huge amount of retirements in the pipeline.
There's a list of retirements per year out to 2026 on the Jazz MEC site under pension/retirement. They don't really start kicking in until about 2021. Then it's about 40-50 a year. Only 15 next year.
Isn't that list assuming that everyone go to 65? I can already count the number from YVR that will pull the pin next year and it's higher than 15..

I'm with Black tusk though. If they want to attract the remaining qualified candidates in the country, the initial pay needs to improve and there needs to be some reason for a few of us to stay long term, and it has nothing to do with social media exposure or 'dealing with millenials'. KP is also right, it would be a good time to bring back some of the other little niceties and perks. Better WDO pay. Upgradeability on DH's. An increase in the % we can purchase in ESOP and maybe raising the match. I would also appreciate some improvements in scheduling. Remove this 'best fit' nonsense on RSV.

Its not like this wasn't forecast. The pre 2015 group had the wool pulled over their eyes and the companies simply took advantage and jammed a 10 year contract down their throats all the while laughing their way to the bank. Time to nix this B scale, both here and at AC(rouge).
---------- ADS -----------

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#48 Post by mbav8r » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:10 am

Rowdy,
As one of the 2015, I'm finding this sense of entitlement from post 2015 to be somewhat frustrating, there was no wool over my eyes, there was two companies with lower wages and benefits gaining work while we were losing work and it was spelled out quite clearly that if we didn't "compete" this trend would continue.
Did you predict the current shortage of pilots at the end of 2014, I mean I've been hearing about it since 1990 and many before that but it never materialized, just a myth until now. Despite the current shortage, pilots continue to accept wages 30% less than their counterparts, going to Flair which has WJ launching a ULCC with, yes you guessed it, 30% lower pay. Do you think that they will be able to fill those seats?
Next, I would like to address something, you as a post 2015 pilot who is already in the left seat have more career earnings at Jazz than me as a one who could not hold left seat at any base until 9 years and that is only because of the PML and new contract.
Post 2015 pilot, assuming they take left seat as soon as they can hold it, after 3 years you're already ahead of me in earnings at 3 years and after 8 years you're 50g ahead of where I was at eight years. The retirements you count at YVR is also a result of the new contract, a pilot must choose before their 62nd birthday if they want a years pay to retire early, after that it's off the table.
If you think for a second you would have a job at Jazz right now if we hadn't agreed to this contract, you are the one with wool over your eyes, you would likely be at SR or GGN on their PML, which was probably plan B if we voted it down, of course nobody knows for sure but some facts cannot be disputed, we were shrinking and others were growing.
---------- ADS -----------

JBI
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 672
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:21 am
Location: YYZ / LGA

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#49 Post by JBI » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:06 am

I agree with mbav8r. Jazz is a great company to work for but AC simply wasn't going to allow them to be their only regional player and there was going to fleet reductions regardless. While it's not all things to all people, the 2015 agreement with the PML etc. was a game changer. I'd argue that even if Jazz still had the old contract and WAWCON but without the PML today, there would be an even bigger recruitment problem.

The one comment I'll add to mbav8r's post is that the WJ ULLC's WAWCON haven't been outlined so not sure where the 30% figure comes from. While it's fair to assume that WJ would like to offer lower pay for the operation, I think they may find the supply of pilots with the skills to fly a 737 for lower rates than already offered at WJ mainline is rather small.
---------- ADS -----------

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#50 Post by mbav8r » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:39 am

JBI,
The 30% was from a WJ pilot who told me Management has said they want a 30-35% pay reduction and are setting it up as a completely separate entity. Again to compete with Flair who now owns New Leaf and has a 30ish % advantage.
As for the supply, who knows maybe they make some type of deal with Encore pilots to avoid ALPA over there and offer a quick Upgrade at the ULCC, pilots being pilots will take the shortest path to the left seat of the 37, we are a very short sighted group for the most part, even as far as predicting the long awaited shortage just a year from beginning to occur myself and many others would say, " sure I'll believe it when I see it". Even now, you still hear, "grab a seat before the music stops"
I truly hope it continues and pilots are able to capitalize on it but after nearly 30 years of this industry, I'm only cautiously optimistic!
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “Jazz Aviation LP - Air Canada Express”