Rumor about %30 pay increase

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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#51 Post by rudder » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:43 am

Black_Tusk wrote:
rudder wrote:
Tail-Chaser wrote: attracting applicants. Hard to believe but true.
1) Raise the starting pay %20-30
2) 2x or 3x WDO pay
3) Lower the average days worked/month, even if it's just a day or two
4) Stop sticking everyone in YUL initially for 4-6 months when there are vacancies at all bases.

I think even just number 4 alone would attract a few more people. But pay is the number one. I am not going to WDO myself very often at only 1.5x on year one or two pay.

.
1) no raise required. Just eliminate the draconian pay reduction of 2015 and put new-hire pay back to where it was in 2014 (that is much more than a 20-30% increase)
2) 1.5x nothing equals nothing. With reasonable entry level pay rates, subscription for overtime would increase. Jazz FA's get double time for third overtime day and beyond. Perhaps that concept should be implemented for the Jazz pilots.
3) pairing inefficiency is a huge problem at Jazz. It will only change if it gets on the company radar screen as a hiring or staffing problem.
4) ALPA fought to make the YUL crew base larger coincident with the dramatic reduction in YYZ. This is a problem where the blame can be shared equally between ALPA and Jazz. The YUL base size and flying allocation should be revisited with a view to redistributing as much flying as possible to YYZ/YYC/YVR thereby mitigating the problem with attracting and retaining YUL based new-hire pilots.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#52 Post by Rowdy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:51 am

mbav8r,

I 100% totally understand your frustration. There are quite a few entitled twats out there. Some that believe the company OWES them an ATPL and that because of this wild amount of movement that they deserve a Left Seat after a year of employment. :shock: That'll happen when all you can hire are 900-1300hr 20 year olds with the current WAWCON.

However there are many here at Jazz now post jan 2015 that were in the process BEFORE this new contract and wage scale. Had I not had a little medical upset in 2012 that saw me sitting sidelined I'd have likely been hired pre B scale.. There are also many that were waiting for the right time.

I'm not new. I'm not a millennial. I'm not 'low time'. I left a decent paying job for this as a look to the future. I knew full well that I would only take the offer if the list was moving and I could hold YVR asap with a relatively quick upgrade. If not, there was NO point in coming. I'd be at AT or SW or have continued trying for OTS at AC. There were better options. There ARE better options, and not just overseas.

While it could have been brushed off at the time, by all the cautious who have been told for 30 some odd years that the shortage was coming..Its apparent now through a few key indicators that this was coming. The push to 65 was a small stopgap. The globalization of the market, the reduction in CPL's and ATPL's in the country being achieved. Ever wonder why TC stopped showcasing the annual numbers? SKR and GGN were measures to lessen the impact and give AC the ability to shuffle flying amongst a few CPA's to avoid a giant surge, which was coming. Now we see the branding removed from all those Georgian 1900's. A pile of that RJ flying being covered by Jazz (as overtime for many) as they can't keep pilots and have difficulty maintaining their schedule. How about SKR? Where did those Q400's end up? Was it really believable that Jazz was going to see a fleet size reduction? Even now, the numbers have become very fluid. How many more RJ's did we take on instead? Call and ask dispatch off the record how many flights they've cancelled on any given day. Ask them why...

The AC pilot group are too costly for the regional flying. The memo that went out from Claude makes me chuckle. Simply smoke and mirrors to help them facilitate this negotiating agenda. Only the extremely cautious and worried previous generation will take that bait. Maybe they're planning to remove some of the scope as concessions at AC and move the C series to SKR or Jazz or a new entity? Time will tell..

Your comments about FLAIR and the potential WJ ULCC aren't even a blip on my radar. How many pilots does FLAIR employ? How many planes? what are their load factors? Hows the cost index? Profitable? Pretty small and insignificant in comparison to the 1400 here, the 4k at AC and the equally large pilot group at WJ and WJE. The ULCC doesn't exist. No planes. No pilots. Very small market. I'd see it as another negotiating tactic. I'll keep my realistic and perhaps optimistic mindset at this point. How do you foresee the ALPA CBA that will come out of the works at GGN? How long before SKR isn't on par or better, with representation than us? You really think they'll keep flying those EMB's at a discount in this environment? Would you not foresee some of that flying coming back our way should that happen?

The notion that this PML was a godsend and 'we wouldn't be here without all of this' is also farcical. It was only 'ok' for those that were stagnant in the right seat at Jazz pre 2015. Now? Its a joke. v2.0 would have you better off OTS after being a DEC at Encore. Which is probably what they'd prefer anyways :wink:

I'm a little disenchanted with our negotiators and MEC at this point. From the perspective of a B-scaler, we lack representation. Have a look at the numbers. Over 60% of the membership is now Post January 2015. Do you see anyone on the new contract negotiating for us? Sure they tell us they have the entire memberships best interest, but its hard to believe when I hear they axed the improvements the company offered.. I hope to be proven wrong. If not, we know how the next vote will turn out.

rudder is on the right track. Eliminate the language regarding the 'classic' airline. Return to the pre 2015 pay scale. Improve the WDO and overtime. How come we don't get AMU's for reassignments? Maybe a bit better ESOP.. I'd like to see something sustainable... We're not asking for anything outlandish.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#53 Post by rudder » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:50 am

Rowdy wrote:Maybe a bit better ESOP.. I'd like to see something sustainable... We're not asking for anything outlandish.
ESOP is the purview of Jazz and CHR. It is independent of the labour agreements at Jazz. It could be improved if they wanted it to be improved (i.e. return to 100% match). They choose not to.

And APIP. At AC even a new-hire is receiving $8000+/yr under their financial performance reward program. At Jazz, it is zero. Meanwhile, CHR and Jazz executives cash in stock options worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And PMLv2.0 is not working out for many Jazz new-hire pilots.

It would appear in many cases that Jazz seems comfortable where it is choosing not to make improvements where such improvements could be made outside of collective bargaining. And then sets up focus groups to see what is wrong.

It is at best confusing and at worst disappointing. Status quo is not a realistic option any longer.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#54 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:56 am

Rowdy wrote:mbav8r,

I 100% totally understand your frustration. There are quite a few entitled twats out there. Some that believe the company OWES them an ATPL and that because of this wild amount of movement that they deserve a Left Seat after a year of employment. :shock: That'll happen when all you can hire are 900-1300hr 20 year olds with the current WAWCON.

However there are many here at Jazz now post jan 2015 that were in the process BEFORE this new contract and wage scale. Had I not had a little medical upset in 2012 that saw me sitting sidelined I'd have likely been hired pre B scale.. There are also many that were waiting for the right time.

I'm not new. I'm not a millennial. I'm not 'low time'. I left a decent paying job for this as a look to the future. I knew full well that I would only take the offer if the list was moving and I could hold YVR asap with a relatively quick upgrade. If not, there was NO point in coming. I'd be at AT or SW or have continued trying for OTS at AC. There were better options. There ARE better options, and not just overseas.

While it could have been brushed off at the time, by all the cautious who have been told for 30 some odd years that the shortage was coming..Its apparent now through a few key indicators that this was coming. The push to 65 was a small stopgap. The globalization of the market, the reduction in CPL's and ATPL's in the country being achieved. Ever wonder why TC stopped showcasing the annual numbers? SKR and GGN were measures to lessen the impact and give AC the ability to shuffle flying amongst a few CPA's to avoid a giant surge, which was coming. Now we see the branding removed from all those Georgian 1900's. A pile of that RJ flying being covered by Jazz (as overtime for many) as they can't keep pilots and have difficulty maintaining their schedule. How about SKR? Where did those Q400's end up? Was it really believable that Jazz was going to see a fleet size reduction? Even now, the numbers have become very fluid. How many more RJ's did we take on instead? Call and ask dispatch off the record how many flights they've cancelled on any given day. Ask them why...

The AC pilot group are too costly for the regional flying. The memo that went out from Claude makes me chuckle. Simply smoke and mirrors to help them facilitate this negotiating agenda. Only the extremely cautious and worried previous generation will take that bait. Maybe they're planning to remove some of the scope as concessions at AC and move the C series to SKR or Jazz or a new entity? Time will tell..

Your comments about FLAIR and the potential WJ ULCC aren't even a blip on my radar. How many pilots does FLAIR employ? How many planes? what are their load factors? Hows the cost index? Profitable? Pretty small and insignificant in comparison to the 1400 here, the 4k at AC and the equally large pilot group at WJ and WJE. The ULCC doesn't exist. No planes. No pilots. Very small market. I'd see it as another negotiating tactic. I'll keep my realistic and perhaps optimistic mindset at this point. How do you foresee the ALPA CBA that will come out of the works at GGN? How long before SKR isn't on par or better, with representation than us? You really think they'll keep flying those EMB's at a discount in this environment? Would you not foresee some of that flying coming back our way should that happen?

The notion that this PML was a godsend and 'we wouldn't be here without all of this' is also farcical. It was only 'ok' for those that were stagnant in the right seat at Jazz pre 2015. Now? Its a joke. v2.0 would have you better off OTS after being a DEC at Encore. Which is probably what they'd prefer anyways :wink:

I'm a little disenchanted with our negotiators and MEC at this point. From the perspective of a B-scaler, we lack representation. Have a look at the numbers. Over 60% of the membership is now Post January 2015. Do you see anyone on the new contract negotiating for us? Sure they tell us they have the entire memberships best interest, but its hard to believe when I hear they axed the improvements the company offered.. I hope to be proven wrong. If not, we know how the next vote will turn out.

rudder is on the right track. Eliminate the language regarding the 'classic' airline. Return to the pre 2015 pay scale. Improve the WDO and overtime. How come we don't get AMU's for reassignments? Maybe a bit better ESOP.. I'd like to see something sustainable... We're not asking for anything outlandish.
Very well said. Just in response to the new contract and representation, the problem I have found is too many people are focused on AC and don't want to "ruffle feathers" by getting involved. They don't want to get involved because they don't know how and think it will only hurt them in the future with their AC goals.. I even had a friend not want to book off when he was very ill because he was on probation. Thought it would look bad. Give it a few years, once half of these pilots get PFO'd from AC maybe then they will start to get involved. Hopefully it won't be too late by then.

You can get involved with the union, voice concerns and help up the WAWCON for those that come after you. Took me 2 years to get to Jazz which I know was very fast. I thought I had it very very good. Now pilots coming after me now are getting interviews at 6 months of 703 flying. Am I mad? Not at all, I am happy for them and want to help improve things for those who come after me. I'd love to see a nice fat pay raise on my year one/two FO pay.. chances are it won't happen anytime soon and I'll likely be in the left seat before it happens. I will still fight for it to happen so people who come next can benefit.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#55 Post by All DAY EVERY DAY » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:24 pm

flyer 1492 wrote:Hmmmm...How about offering more money?
Low salary and with the current rumoured numbers, almost a non existent flow through. They still want to meet the new guys to know WTF is wrong.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#56 Post by Inverted2 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:44 pm

All DAY EVERY DAY wrote:
flyer 1492 wrote:Hmmmm...How about offering more money?
Low salary and with the current rumoured numbers, almost a non existent flow through. They still want to meet the new guys to know WTF is wrong.
I went through the September schedules for all bases and could only find 4 or 5 pilots from Jazz on the Sept 11 AC course. So the up to 80% PML might actually mean 80% from places other than Jazz! :roll:
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#57 Post by mbav8r » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:28 am

Rowdy,
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing, however we were/are one SARS event away from not having a pilot shortage, if you've been around as long as you say you would recognize that.
Yes it was believable that a reduction would come if we didn't agree, in fact shortly after we signed the deal, SR and GGN both received more work and we were ruduced as per the new arrangement. Yes, there has been some growth but we are still smaller than we were, even 6 years ago.
WJ wasn't a blip on ACs radar back in 96 either, they won't make that mistake again!
Basically everything you see now was not possible without the new contract, 15 retirements per year while we were being reduced to the bare minimum the CPA allowed was not a palatable option, now as you say the post 2015 pilots outnumber the pre, that was talked about amongst the pilot group before the vote and is a concern, of course. I hope the negotiations are on behalf of ALL Jazz pilots and I've said this before, this contract had essentially NO improvements for the current(at the time) pilots, why in the world do you feel that the pilots who are choosing to stay, who were here before you should not see improvement, so you can! A big raise for you and all the post 2015 pilots and nothing for the others is acceptable to you! That's what was rumoured to be on offer.
All the improvements you and Black tusk et al. talk about will not happen unless the company decides to, everything has a cost and we signed a ten year cost neutral contract, improvements to something will need to be offset elsewhere. That was the cost of the lifeline being offered, talk about markers and signs all you want but without a crystal ball or consultation with Nostradamus, it could not have been predicted.
You seem unhappy with the fact you will make at least 50g more than I did in the first 8 years of your employment, please don't take this the wrong way, maybe you should look at those "better options" because I sincerely doubt you will see the improvements you desire anytime in the next 8 years, remember "cost neutral" and vote how you want but it won't matter, we can't have any job action either. So, vote with your feet, maybe that'll send a message
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#58 Post by Rowdy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:18 am

I hear the same rhetoric from you time and time again. 'Don't like it, leave.'. 'It was our only choice' 'They threw us this lifeline'. You mimic the same words I hear from our reps.

This is NOT how we move forward and get back what was taken away. Sure, some things just simply can't happen (DB pension) and I never once said we all don't deserve an increase. I'd just like to see the B scale disappear and a mild improvement for EVERYONE. Go back re-read my posts. I said a sustainable increase for everyone! But you'd rather focus on how us post 2015'ers are a bunch of entitled whiny shmucks that don't know how hard times were and pontificate on all of the things you didn't see in hindsight.

We are not one SARS event away from stagnation. Not even close. Take a look south of the 49 or anywhere else in the world. Shit is going to hit the fan HARD for the airlines that do not adapt and make the best of the currently happening worldwide shortage. You don't think the american carriers aren't already pushing for changes that'll allow them to keep staffed? Won't be long and you'll see more subsidized flight training, more bonuses, increased wawcon (and not just at the regional level) and a HUGE push to easily validate foreign ATPL's and allow easy access to green cards for pilots. Should we be posting the current bonus and retention packages and commuting schedules being offered by the american regionals and a bunch of the foreign carriers? Or will you ignore this too? Did a large american carrier not just throw a pile of increases at its pilot populace outside of contract negotiations? Look at what Porter is offering as well!

We have the opportunity now to improve WAWCON, by removing the B scale and making gentle/sustainable gains for the entire group. Yet you'd rather argue about things that happened in the past.

My worst fear now is that with our declining performance, that AC will remove flying as we can't maintain staffing levels due to the B scale pay scam. Watch those arrival and departure boards on the daily.. they're pretty freakin' red.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#59 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:12 am

Rowdy have you thought about joining the bargaining committee? I've been looking into it, and speaking to some of the union reps they want more people on the new contract joining. People who can learn and take over as the old guard starts to retire.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#60 Post by Rowdy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:40 am

I am looking to become more involved. I actively am pursuing a couple of areas now :wink:
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#61 Post by infiniteregulus » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:47 am

All these staffing issues won't matter when the oil/energy crisis hits in a few decades hahaha :lol:
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#62 Post by Rowdy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:31 pm

We got another 30years before that starts to take hold.. I'll be long retired by then :rolleyes:
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#63 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:59 pm

Rowdy wrote:I am looking to become more involved. I actively am pursuing a couple of areas now :wink:
Same. Maybe I'll see you there. :D
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#64 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:08 am

I'll see everyone at the focus group!
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#65 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:55 pm

One thing that I need to point out:

Just as a point of reference, some of the "old timers" at Jazz keep telling us how it took them 10 years to move to the left seat and how "good" we have it now, that if you're competent, you could see the left seat in under 2 years. Well, I don't disagree with that, but remember, 10-15 years ago, a house in Toronto was not $1,000,000, gas wasn't $1.30 a litre and a head of lettuce was not $5.71...

Current salaries, do not reflect the astronomical jump in the cost of living, especially in major cities. I'm not even going to talk about daycare, car insurance, etc. If you live in YYZ (or around the area) you're scraping for the basic necessities.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#66 Post by mbav8r » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:13 am

As an old timer, I don't disagree that the cost of living has gone up much more than wages. Hans, I'll ask you this, if Jazz had no jobs, would you have applied at SR, GGN one Encore? Wages will go up when they have to, ie; when pilots no longer accept the wages on offer.
10-15 years ago you needed 5000 hours before WJ even looked at your resume, airlines were going out of business and pilots with 4000-5000 hours were flying Senecas and Navajos to earn a living, some it even took 12 or so years to get on with Jazz. I've never seen the kind of movement we're experiencing, to the point of hiring pilots with less than 1000 hours, companies offering 100g for medevac Captain and just about every company you can think of in a constant state of hiring, plenty of choices out there.
I don't live in one of those expensive cities, everything you do is a choice, you chose to come to Jazz and you choose to live in Toronto or surrounding area, Rowdy loves it when I say this, you can choose to go fly a King Air for much more than Jazz pays or you can choose to live somewhere much less expensive and commute.
I don't actually mean this as disrespect, my point has always been, if pilots vote with their feet the pay will go up but it takes more than one to make a change and unfortunately pilots keep applying.
FYI, Encore direct entry Captain pays less than Jazz 1st year Captain pay, I believe SR is more or less exactly the same 75.00, GGN well I don't even know but for sure it's less, so what is it you want, you want Jazz to pay more than their competitors?
I read your other post about the classic, I feel your pain, I flew the Dash also and it was low credit high leg days with the same three overnights, I bid off it as soon as I could and it has never been in my standing bid again, left or right seat. Some are ok with it but life on the RJ is much more civilized, that being said because now you don't accrue years of service for left seat pay, you might want to consider bidding for it until you can hold Q or RJ, it does get better. Also, personally I feel Western bases have a better atmosphere and overall moral, I'm always unhappy when I'm sent out East on a pairing. Maybe consider a base change.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#67 Post by GATRKGA » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:08 pm

So hows the 30% raise negotiations looking for Jazz?

It will be interesting to see the trickle down if you guys get this. Encore is basically Jazz less 10%, and SR has to keep up with the wages if they want to attract anyone should jazz be the highest paid regional....
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#68 Post by RhumbLine » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:27 pm

Heard from a credible source that the company did in fact approach the union about the raise but they wanted to make it a hiring bonus instead of a raise for new hires. So keep the low wage and add the bonus on top.

Anyone here get invited to the focus group?
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#69 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:36 pm

RhumbLine wrote:Heard from a credible source that the company did in fact approach the union about the raise but they wanted to make it a hiring bonus instead of a raise for new hires. So keep the low wage and add the bonus on top.

Anyone here get invited to the focus group?
Yeah, I will be there
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#70 Post by RhumbLine » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:39 pm

Rupert_Pupkin wrote:
RhumbLine wrote:Heard from a credible source that the company did in fact approach the union about the raise but they wanted to make it a hiring bonus instead of a raise for new hires. So keep the low wage and add the bonus on top.

Anyone here get invited to the focus group?
Yeah, I will be there

Good luck! I have a feeling it will be a lot of sidestepping of the obvious "Yeah we know everyone wants to get rid of the B Scale" but...

Keep us posted of your findings!
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#71 Post by dhc# » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:02 pm

RhumbLine wrote:Heard from a credible source that the company did in fact approach the union about the raise but they wanted to make it a hiring bonus instead of a raise for new hires. So keep the low wage and add the bonus on top.

Anyone here get invited to the focus group?
So really the exact same response that US regionals are doing for attracting and attempting to retain pilots...the more things change.... :rolleyes:

Wonder if they attempt to match/beat Porter's ideas for retention ?
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#72 Post by LtDan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:27 pm

I'll be there as well. Fire a PM if there is anything you would like mentioned.. I think the one scale idea has been beaten to death on here lol but I'm a lifer and all for making things better for us, so if you guys have any ideas just send away! Its nice to see that the communications channels with management are open.. now only time will tell if that translates to action and positive longer term change for all of us.

Cheers,
Dan

RhumbLine wrote:Heard from a credible source that the company did in fact approach the union about the raise but they wanted to make it a hiring bonus instead of a raise for new hires. So keep the low wage and add the bonus on top.

Anyone here get invited to the focus group?
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#73 Post by rudder » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:45 am

FYI - as the Jazz pilots are represented by ALPA, it is illegal for the company to survey, interview, or solicit opinion from any Jazz pilots on any issues covered under the collective agreement.

It would appear that some attendees are not aware of the terms of reference of the focus group. You may therefore be disappointed with the actual content of the discussions.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#74 Post by Inverted2 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:52 am

All they are going to do is ask which social media platform is best for trying to attract future pilots. Don't expect it to get too "contractual". But do enjoy a paid day out there and have a few :drinkers: afterwards.
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Re: Rumor about %30 pay increase

#75 Post by rudder » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:25 am

Hiring is the company's problem, not the union's. If the company is having a problem recognizing that B-scale is an impediment to recruitment then there is a disconnect with reality in a job market overflowing with choices for pilots.

However, if the B scale demographic would like to have their sentiments known as far as WAWCON at Jazz is concerned, then the appropriate venue would be the JAZZ ALPA MEC.
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