TSC- Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

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TheSocialChameleon
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TSC- Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#1 Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:35 am

When you flew up in Northern Canada did you ever have a feeling at the back of your mind that the training you received wasn't sufficient to complete the job safely? What if my passengers only knew how little training I received? How incredibly old this airplane is and the amount of deferred MEL'd items I'm flying with?

I am concerned about the training given to new hire pilots. I'm not talking about flight time experience. I'm taking about feeling confident about your abilities after your company just gave you the bare minimum training to satisfy TC.

If you don't feel comfortable speak up to your training department for more information. If you receive any excuses and bad attitude you will know that safety is placed higher than profits at your company.
What should be done is to direct you to additional training resources and coaching.

"Train people well enough so they can leave,
treat them well enough so they don't want to" -Richard Branson
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Last edited by TheSocialChameleon on Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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twinpratts
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#2 Post by twinpratts » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:05 pm

Nope.
Never felt that way. Must be just you.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#3 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:18 pm

You will never be or feel fully prepared for flying up north. Lots of things change. And its up north where you have to make decisions and based off the decisions you make experience is gained. And the only way to do that is to just go out and give it a shot.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#4 Post by crazyaviator » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:08 pm

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Nope.
Never felt that way. Must be just you. 
You do sound like an asshole !

I went up north after spending time as an AME/ pilot down south and honing my skills to what would be needed in ANY part of Canada. The north was no surprise to me for I loved being in control and exercising decision making under pressure in adverse conditions! The aboriginal situation,,,, I said to myself BEFORE I arrived in the north, that I would enjoy it and not let the situation get me down ! There were pilots all around me , including in my own company that were either over their head or way over their head!!!!!!!!!!!,... Shame on the operators and those down south giving the magical 50 hr wonder "bush" courses or the idiots managing college courses knowing little more than the students they train or not allowed to speak truths about the north !
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#5 Post by Jean-Pierre » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:21 am

Again?
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#6 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:51 pm

The aboriginal situation,,,, I said to myself BEFORE I arrived in the north, that I would enjoy it and not let the situation get me down !
There is still an aboriginal situation in the north?

What exactly is an aboriginal situation?
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#7 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:16 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
The aboriginal situation,,,, I said to myself BEFORE I arrived in the north, that I would enjoy it and not let the situation get me down !
There is an aboriginal situation in the north?

What exactly is an aboriginal situation?
oh boy... here we go.............
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#8 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:33 pm

O.K. Rupert, I will change my post.
There is an aboriginal situation in the north?
There is still an aboriginal situation in the north?

There that hopefully will be a better question.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#9 Post by porcsord » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:30 am

TheSocialChameleon wrote:Northern Ontario flying
TheSocialChameleon wrote:flew up in Northern Canada
That's cute.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#10 Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:46 pm

Sachigo Lake and Gjoa Haven are in the same neighbourhood. I thought everybody knew that anything north of Toronto is northern Canada.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#11 Post by Minimums » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:49 pm

Its a matter of time before someone else is killed. Wunnumun lake, cambridge bay or la ronge. It might be a navajo, 1900, caravan, dh8 or a 37, 1 person or 100, but its going to happen.

The lack of experience is dumbfounding. If someone doesnt feel unsafe, they are blissfully unaware in todays reality. NWO is a prime example; last time I checked, OBS'ing runway heading down to you feel comfortable wasn't an approved procedure, but its rampent use must dicate its safe to do so.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#12 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:48 pm

Minimums wrote: last time I checked, OBS'ing runway heading down to you feel comfortable wasn't an approved procedure, but its rampent use must dicate its safe to do so.
How often did you see that being done... really?

Because I sure as hell didn't and none of the pilots I worked with did either. Minimums were minimums. If you work at a company that requires you to break the rules to "get the job done" it's time to look for a new job.

If you're sitting in the right seat, and a Captain does that.. well then you need to make a decision if you want to continue on with that pilot and/or company.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#13 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:48 am

Minimums wrote:Its a matter of time before someone else is killed. Wunnumun lake, cambridge bay or la ronge. It might be a navajo, 1900, caravan, dh8 or a 37, 1 person or 100, but its going to happen.
You forgot pc12 in that list. The most notorious company in NW Ontario for OBS'ing a runway used to fly all over PC12s.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#14 Post by flyinhigh » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:31 am

Minimums wrote:Its a matter of time before someone else is killed. Wunnumun lake, cambridge bay or la ronge. It might be a navajo, 1900, caravan, dh8 or a 37, 1 person or 100, but its going to happen.

The lack of experience is dumbfounding. If someone doesnt feel unsafe, they are blissfully unaware in todays reality. NWO is a prime example; last time I checked, OBS'ing runway heading down to you feel comfortable wasn't an approved procedure, but its rampent use must dicate its safe to do so.

I'm sry but if this is what you're seeing, than speak up and quit. I started my career in NWO and stayed in and out of that part of the country for the past 17 years and I have never watched someone do this. Especially this day and age, folks are even more aware of the rules and regs and they sure follow them.

Oh, unless you worked for Kasper than it was ok because you can do 300' and 1 sm.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#15 Post by 5x5 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:42 am

TheSocialChameleon wrote:When you flew up in Northern Canada did you ever have a feeling at the back of your mind that the training you received wasn't sufficient to complete the job safely? What if my passengers only knew how little training I received? How incredibly old this airplane is and the amount of deferred MEL'd items I'm flying with?
So, how many aircraft did you crash and how many people did you kill or injure? Perhaps your training wasn't inadequate after all?

Everyone with any sense has some internal doubts about their abilities and that keeps us humble and cautious. It also drives us to strive and continually get better which is how we all gain experience and improve our skills. Expecting any employer to provide you constant training until you feel 100% comfortable is misguided and also completely impractical.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#16 Post by NotDirty! » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:40 am

5x5 wrote:So, how many aircraft did you crash and how many people did you kill or injure? Perhaps your training wasn't inadequate after all?
Oh come on now! I sincerely hope that we are long past the idea that just because people have got away with it for years that it must be a safe thing to do! We all know that there are operators out there that cut a lot of corners when it comes to safety vs profit; many outright violate the CARs, but as long as nobody gets hurt it must have been ok.

I knew a guy who told me a story of flying as FO on a sched flight into Fort BFN Lake in a PC12. The airport had no approaches, but that was fine: just OBS the centreline, and shoot the "Mexican ILS"! They did this all the time, it was no big deal. On the one day he was recalling, they flew their homebrew approach down to 50 ft on the Rad Alt, and still didn't see anything. At that point, the went missed, and they went on with the rest of their day (and the pop 'n chips 'n pax made it to their destination another time); apparently the Captain confided in his FO at that point that this was the first time he had EVER done a missed approach at that [now long defunct] company!!

Now those guys tried doing a Cat IIIA Mexican ILS, and got away with it with no injuries and no bent metal... does that mean that this was a safe practice, or an acceptable risk?

I remember a while back we had people on this forum comparing intentionally flying VFR into IMC to driving a few klicks over the speed limit... against the law technically, but they would get over it. I know lots of people have done it and got away with it, but that still doesn't mean it was a good idea.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#17 Post by FlyB » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:41 am

Unfortunately in this industry, a few pilots do not realize and respect the gravity of conducting flights that way. This is a human factors issue, that has been a cause for many accidents. I missed flying into a reserve, 2 minutes later a PC-12 gets in, I just hoped that they didnt do anything stupid. It isnt about busting minimums and landing but about what would happen if you had an engine failure below minimums. Unfortunately, some pilots don't mature and make that a habit. If you respect the regs, because they have been written in blood, no person with common sense would intentionally break them. how do you train pilots in decision making?
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#18 Post by bushwings » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:34 pm

Reminds me of the saying, everyone starts with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience, gotta fill up the experience bag before the luck runs out. These days there is so little experience left in the bush Jazz took it all.
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Re: Make Northern Ontario flying safe again!

#19 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:02 am

bushwings wrote:Reminds me of the saying, everyone starts with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience, gotta fill up the experience bag before the luck runs out. These days there is so little experience left in the bush Jazz took it all.
It sucks that not a lot of people are wanting to head up north and fly bush planes. I'm so lucky I got to do that at the start of my career. I am, like you said above, at jazz now but will always take what I learned up there with me for the rest of my career. Some of the new people I run into at work truly don't know the meaning of a "bad" day at work.
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