What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
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- confusedalot
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
English is my first language but like many Quebecers I am fully bilingual, not by merit but by circumstance.
Even so, I find it somewhat sad that others in Quebec would not do their calls in two languages, since, in my day, and in Quebec airspace, WE, not just me, would broadcast in two languages to cover the bases.
I am sad to hear about the OP's tribulations, should not have happened. Safety should trump ego in a perfect world.
These other guys could speak English, I am sure of it.
Aw well, I could not change the world even if I tried. And I have tried.
Even so, I find it somewhat sad that others in Quebec would not do their calls in two languages, since, in my day, and in Quebec airspace, WE, not just me, would broadcast in two languages to cover the bases.
I am sad to hear about the OP's tribulations, should not have happened. Safety should trump ego in a perfect world.
These other guys could speak English, I am sure of it.
Aw well, I could not change the world even if I tried. And I have tried.
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
- HiFlyChick
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
That actually wasn't aimed at you, CI - I just find that whenever language discussions come up, people can get riled up pretty quickly without looking at the bigger context - in this case, safety. I was actually going to quote the posts where people just made the flippant comments about the OP learning French. Becoming bilingual when you live in an all English speaking area is not really a viable option, even if you had the time to go away and do an immersion course - when you can't practice a (second) language, it fades fast.complexintentions wrote:No animosity. "Idiot" is a gentle word for people who would gladly jeopardize flight safety to make a point.
As I said, just go elsewhere if you have the choice. You won't miss much.
When I was going to QC a lot, it was for work, and there was no option to go elsewhere.
I think we need to start fostering a discussion about "what can I do to improve safety?" between French and English pilots, and in general name calling doesn't help. Are some people too sensitive about the subject? Maybe. But we haven't walked in their shoes and so it's sometimes better to go with being diplomatic and cutting people slack. Although having taken a glance in the 20+ pages of discussion on the SFO incident, diplomacy is not exactly a highly valued skill around here....
Okay, so call me a Pollyanna, maybe I'm hoping for a kinder, gentler AvCanada, or maybe I just really miss TAF
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
"But would you continue in french knowing someone is speaking english who obviously is English"?
K: The fact that you announced in English does not necessarily signal to the others that you are unilingual. My French is limited and I comprehend more than I speak. Therefore, in Quebec (Sherbrooke and Trois Rivieres last year), when I announced in English, those doing their thing in French would have no inkling whether or not I was proficient in their language.
K: The fact that you announced in English does not necessarily signal to the others that you are unilingual. My French is limited and I comprehend more than I speak. Therefore, in Quebec (Sherbrooke and Trois Rivieres last year), when I announced in English, those doing their thing in French would have no inkling whether or not I was proficient in their language.
- Shady McSly
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
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Last edited by icewa on Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Airplanes
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
I must call Bull Sh1t on the statement - I have flown in almost every country in Europe and unless the laws have changed recently local aircraft were controlled in local language and, I stress the and the common language was English. While countries must supply ATC in English it does not make the definition of English as the official language of aviation (which seems that there are a lot of virginal canadians hung up on this definition) but after losing their cherries the light will come on. Why is it so hard for canadians to become worldly To put it simply there is a big difference between official and common.Canada is one of the few places where a language other than English is allowed; it is actually illegal in France.
As for VFR one of the biggest failures these days is that people have stopped looking out the window with far too much reliance on radio calls. "Stay alert and watch for other aircraft" a phrase that has faded to obscurity.
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
Some time ago I rented a C152 at the uncontrolled airfield in Finland for a local sightseeing flight. It was a weekend, so several other aircraft were flying around, and everyone was talking on the radio in Finnish. After I made the first call for a taxi (in English), EVERYONE switched to English...
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
In March 1976, an Air Canada DC8-43 (leased to Cubana) collided with an AN24 over Havana. Both were cleared to the beacon at the same time; one in English, one in Spanish.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19760318-1
ATC was using two frequencies; one English, one Spanish. The bilingual DC8 crew was monitoring both. The AN24 crew's radio habits are unknown. The AN24 was speaking Spanish.
The DC8 lost the outer wing and engine on one side. The (small but adrenalin inspired) AC Captain literally lifted the Cubana Captain out of the left seat, took control, and landed the aircraft. The manual (tab) ailerons on the DC8 were "open ended" loss of one didn't affect the other side; Thank you Douglas Engineers! (I flew that specific airplane at AC)
This was clearly a language related accident, but all mention of it was severely suppressed in Canada as the "French in The Air" issue was raging. Also, "Les Gens De L'Air) were waging a campaign to get all the Anglos out of the Montreal Base, which would improve the seniority of those Francophones remaining. I overheard a conversation in French by two members (who didn't know I understood) plotting how to ratchet up the pressure. The conversation included the concept of French only ATC in Quebec; no mention of crews from other countries!
I have experienced numerous instances of language confusion in Canada and other countries where other languages are tolerated. "Bilingual" Controllers forgetting who is speaking which language etc. Controllers clearing muliple airplanes to the same place at the same time, both in Canada and elsewhere.
I have assisted French Speaking pilots who are lost in the air in Canada and unable to speak English.
We are not doing anyone a favour by permitting non-English useage. Anyone wishing an Aviation Career, or to fly outside Quebec must speak "Aviation English". Pilots in other countries manage this; Canadians can also do so.
Some of the most remote places rigourously enforce English Only. Having said that, English doesn't make up for utter incompetence!
When Korean Air decided to improve their dismal Safety Record, they hired foreign instructors and enforced English Only in Training and Operations. Safety improved dramatically. Aeroflot International did the same with the same results.
The sooner we all get over this Tribalism/Nationalistic nonsense, the safer we will all be!
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19760318-1
ATC was using two frequencies; one English, one Spanish. The bilingual DC8 crew was monitoring both. The AN24 crew's radio habits are unknown. The AN24 was speaking Spanish.
The DC8 lost the outer wing and engine on one side. The (small but adrenalin inspired) AC Captain literally lifted the Cubana Captain out of the left seat, took control, and landed the aircraft. The manual (tab) ailerons on the DC8 were "open ended" loss of one didn't affect the other side; Thank you Douglas Engineers! (I flew that specific airplane at AC)
This was clearly a language related accident, but all mention of it was severely suppressed in Canada as the "French in The Air" issue was raging. Also, "Les Gens De L'Air) were waging a campaign to get all the Anglos out of the Montreal Base, which would improve the seniority of those Francophones remaining. I overheard a conversation in French by two members (who didn't know I understood) plotting how to ratchet up the pressure. The conversation included the concept of French only ATC in Quebec; no mention of crews from other countries!
I have experienced numerous instances of language confusion in Canada and other countries where other languages are tolerated. "Bilingual" Controllers forgetting who is speaking which language etc. Controllers clearing muliple airplanes to the same place at the same time, both in Canada and elsewhere.
I have assisted French Speaking pilots who are lost in the air in Canada and unable to speak English.
We are not doing anyone a favour by permitting non-English useage. Anyone wishing an Aviation Career, or to fly outside Quebec must speak "Aviation English". Pilots in other countries manage this; Canadians can also do so.
Some of the most remote places rigourously enforce English Only. Having said that, English doesn't make up for utter incompetence!
When Korean Air decided to improve their dismal Safety Record, they hired foreign instructors and enforced English Only in Training and Operations. Safety improved dramatically. Aeroflot International did the same with the same results.
The sooner we all get over this Tribalism/Nationalistic nonsense, the safer we will all be!
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
JasonE wrote:My personal favorite this week was asking for an airport advisory in English and getting it in french.....I had to have my head on swivel every time I landed uncontrolled going through Quebec this week. It would have been greatly appreciated if people used English when there is an English pilot in the area making calls. The CYQB controller was responding to people in English while I transited for my benefit I believe.
Wish I had retained more of my high school French! It would have made for a safer journey. 126.7 was a complete waste of time to listen to as I had no idea what was going on.
Exactly. I started this thread to get some advice and to learn something from more experienced pilots. What I will do in the future is : 1 keep a better watch. 2 announce that I am english only and to ask for clarification of aircraft in the circuit and intentions.
It does not bother me that people speak french while in the air to each other or to ATC. It was over the ATF at an uncontrolled airfield. I figured by my use of english on the radio that i was an english speaker
Thanks for helping me out and listening to my problems and offering advice. I actually made copious notes in my screwup log to learn from.
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
Many years ago, I was posted to Quebec, and while landing in Riviere du Loup with in my C170 heading to NB, I decided to announce my intentions in my best high school French.
Accordingly, I came out with something like:
"Trois Rivieres: ici Cessna C-FZXO, trois miles finale pour la piste zero sept."
There was a pause, then a burst of French in response.
I keyed the mike and replied "What you heard is what I know".
The response was prefaced by the sounds of 2 guys busting a gut in the other aircraft and then "It's OK ZXO, we'll hold short of the active until you're down".
Oh, well... I tried! (;>0)
Accordingly, I came out with something like:
"Trois Rivieres: ici Cessna C-FZXO, trois miles finale pour la piste zero sept."
There was a pause, then a burst of French in response.
I keyed the mike and replied "What you heard is what I know".
The response was prefaced by the sounds of 2 guys busting a gut in the other aircraft and then "It's OK ZXO, we'll hold short of the active until you're down".
Oh, well... I tried! (;>0)
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
You can get a copy of a good users guide written by a francophone pilot based out of Bromont Que for the EAA Canada Bits and Pieces newsletter. He provides functional translations for things you need to know to operate in Quebec and in particular in a unicom environment. If you're going solo it can't hurt to have a copy in your kneeboard for the occasion. Of course committing it to memory would be better........Posthumane wrote:To keep this discussion productive, does anyone have a link to a phraseology guide in French? There's a chance I may fly through Quebec some day and I'd like to pick up the basic phrases. I suppose I could just translate the English phrases but I'm not sure if it would be exactly what's used. Also, is the phonetic alphabet the same in Fr?
http://spirit.eaa.org/bitsandpieces/art ... quebec.asp
Perceptive of you to realize that a literal translation will not be good enough, it's not good enough even for a mother tongue Quebecois who learned to fly in English!
To add my personal anglo flying in Quebec story, I did a trip a few years ago in our C-152 with stops at Riviere du Loup/Trois Riveres/Bromont/Saint Georges. ATC was seamless English (or French if that's your flavour) so no problem there (use flight following) but for unicoms I cheated & had my Quebecois S.O./pilot do the talking, much safer that way.
D
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
Looking at the geography you mentioned I'm thinking radio waves are not blocked by a borderI can understand the French only in QC. However I recall flying around eastern Ontario (Timmins/Chapleau) and hearing a lot of French on 126.7. It made me pretty uncomfortable because for all I know they could be 1NM away or 30NM away. Out of QC, all uncontrolled calls should be made in English or at least both French and English. If you can't speak coherent English you have no business flying outside of QC.
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
Thanks, that looks like an excellent resource! I'll have to print that off and study it before I ever fly east.Pavese wrote:
You can get a copy of a good users guide written by a francophone pilot based out of Bromont Que for the EAA Canada Bits and Pieces newsletter. He provides functional translations for things you need to know to operate in Quebec and in particular in a unicom environment. If you're going solo it can't hurt to have a copy in your kneeboard for the occasion. Of course committing it to memory would be better........
http://spirit.eaa.org/bitsandpieces/art ... quebec.asp
Perceptive of you to realize that a literal translation will not be good enough, it's not good enough even for a mother tongue Quebecois who learned to fly in English!
To add my personal anglo flying in Quebec story, I did a trip a few years ago in our C-152 with stops at Riviere du Loup/Trois Riveres/Bromont/Saint Georges. ATC was seamless English (or French if that's your flavour) so no problem there (use flight following) but for unicoms I cheated & had my Quebecois S.O./pilot do the talking, much safer that way.
D
One thing that's confusing right away is that thousand (Mille) and Miles (Milles) sound awfully similar. So 3 miles south at 2000' would be "trois milles au sud a deux mille pieds"?
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." -George Bernard Shaw
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
My personal Quebecois translator tells me that you pronounce them the same and you know by context which is meant!Posthumane wrote:
One thing that's confusing right away is that thousand (Mille) and Miles (Milles) sound awfully similar. So 3 miles south at 2000' would be "trois milles au sud a deux mille pieds"?
D
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
In french we always say pieds to avoid confusion when saying an altitudePavese wrote:My personal Quebecois translator tells me that you pronounce them the same and you know by context which is meant!Posthumane wrote:
One thing that's confusing right away is that thousand (Mille) and Miles (Milles) sound awfully similar. So 3 miles south at 2000' would be "trois milles au sud a deux mille pieds"?
D
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
French 101:
"Conflicting traffic, please advise"
--->"Trafic en conflit, s'il vous plaît avisez mais en anglais"
You will be much safer
"Conflicting traffic, please advise"
--->"Trafic en conflit, s'il vous plaît avisez mais en anglais"
You will be much safer
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
Tribalist almost sounds honorable in that particular case, xenophobe would indeed be more accurate.B208 wrote:Neither French nor English are races. If you absolutely must acuse someone of being an 'ist' the word you're looking for is tribalist.timel wrote: Never been an issue. The problem isn't the language, the problem is racist assholes and norrow minded idiots who can't look beyond their villages or borders.
Where is the airmanship? We all have a commun ground that is a passion for aviation.
Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
Don't discount the value of making the effort. I've heard from many travellers that if you at least *try* to speak French in Quebec, you'll be met with much more support (and frequently a switch to English) because they (a) appreciate the effort, and (b) don't want to hear any more of the French language garbled. If you just start in English, and get frustrated when nobody will talk to you or answer you in English, they'll just be amused and carry on in French.Schooner69A wrote:...
I keyed the mike and replied "What you heard is what I know".
The response was prefaced by the sounds of 2 guys busting a gut in the other aircraft and then "It's OK ZXO, we'll hold short of the active until you're down".
Oh, well... I tried! (;>0)
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
TG: stop it! I snorted coffee out my nose!
- complexintentions
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Re: What is the deal with all the French on the radio?
lolAirFrame wrote: Don't discount the value of making the effort. I've heard from many travellers that if you at least *try* to speak French in Quebec, you'll be met with much more support (and frequently a switch to English) because they (a) appreciate the effort, and (b) don't want to hear any more of the French language garbled. If you just start in English, and get frustrated when nobody will talk to you or answer you in English, they'll just be amused and carry on in French.
"Garbled" is all relative, I suppose. My dear Parisian friend, a professional linguist/translator, is nearly physically ill whenever she hears français québécois uttered aloud. She refuses to acknowledge it as "French", describing it more as - to paraphrase - a regional dialect "excruciatingly painful and assaulting of the ear". (OK, it sounds less mean when said by a tiny blonde Frenchwoman with an impossibly elegant Tours accent).
Just something to remember if someone is amused by your attempts to employ your Mad High School French Skillz.
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.