PML between Express Carriers

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GATRKGA
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PML between Express Carriers

#1 Post by GATRKGA » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:31 pm

I had a Jazz J/S on one of my flights, and the lady was telling me that if you work for one CPA carrier, and go to another, you can no longer go to Air Canada on the PML. Is this true?

All i could find was this

"Any pilot employed at a CPA carrier on the date this arrangement comes into force and who resigns
from that CPA Carrier and subsequently is rehired by one of the CPA Carriers will not be permitted to
participate in this arrangement, unless the rehiring CPA Carrier agrees to the pilot participating."

Has anyone actually had experience with this and whether the new CPA company would have any issues on allowing you to enter the PML? It would seem to me that it would be in the best interest of any CPA to let their pilot's go on the PML ...
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#2 Post by CanadianEh » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:05 pm

What you quoted is what it is. It is NOT true that by leaving one Express carrier for another you lose the ability to participate in the PML. Perhaps if you were in the process (ie: had an interview) you'll have to restart at the new carrier. But I personally know of people who have left an Express carrier for another are now at Air Canada through the PML.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#3 Post by Fanblade » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:08 am

The rehiring CPA carrier has to agree to the pilot going on the PML.

It's a carrot and a stick. Here is a flow through in one hand. Don't bounce around and cost me money with another.

There is no guarantee that at some point CPA carries might choose that a rehired will not participate in the PML.

This however would likely create retention issues for that CPA carrier.

It is a risk that should be considered. Choose wisely.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#4 Post by Inverted2 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:36 am

Another move would be to go to Encore. Equally crappy regional pay but AC is hiring from them. I've flown with tons of Jazz newbies who have been PFO'd recently. If you get turned down at least you can go to their mainline without jumping through all the interviews/cog test/psych test/medical hoops.

I wouldn't recommend jumping between express PML carriers. If you don't get blacklisted by AC at the very best it would take you a very long time to get hired at AC.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#5 Post by Air.Field » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:15 am

Encore would seem to be the preferred regional for career progression. Guaranteed to go to Westjet or a chance at AC as OTS or other carriers like Sunwing, Transat.. Those at the Express, just have a chance and a random one at that, to go to AC or OTS at the others. Working conditions at all regionals are somewhat similar, edge slightly to Jazz.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#6 Post by GATRKGA » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:57 pm

Air.Field wrote:Encore would seem to be the preferred regional for career progression. Guaranteed to go to Westjet

The ALPA unionization at WJ and the birth of the ULCC at WJ throws a wrench into this guarantee, no?
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#7 Post by plhought » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:47 pm

GATRKGA wrote:
Air.Field wrote:Encore would seem to be the preferred regional for career progression. Guaranteed to go to Westjet

The ALPA unionization at WJ and the birth of the ULCC at WJ throws a wrench into this guarantee, no?
Shhhhhhh. Don't say anything. Everything is great. Everything is status-quo for next 4 years because JetBlue and Saretesky is such a leader.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#8 Post by Air.Field » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:32 am

GATRKGA wrote:
Air.Field wrote:Encore would seem to be the preferred regional for career progression. Guaranteed to go to Westjet

The ALPA unionization at WJ and the birth of the ULCC at WJ throws a wrench into this guarantee, no?
WJ will need a source of pilots. It makes sense to keep the current guaranteed flow, it would be a determinant if they didn't.

How seniority will play out that a different story. If ALPA appears at Encore, then seniority I'm sure will be some integration based on DoH, that's up to them to negotiate.

Never the less, the flow will remain, and it seems AC has a penchant for taking Westjet group pilots.

Add to that, with the expansion and ULCC, there'll be plenty of movement and opportunities there as it would be at AC.

The express carriers face some routes being repatriated back to AC, what that means or how it plays out for express carriers is unknown at this time, but it is a play by AC to address the shortage at the express level.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#9 Post by CanadianEh » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:38 am

Air.Field wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:
Air.Field wrote:
The express carriers face some routes being repatriated back to AC, what that means or how it plays out for express carriers is unknown at this time, but it is a play by AC to address the shortage at the express level.
The repatriation of routes is more to do with landing slots in YYZ. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out since Rouge was never meant for domestic routes.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#10 Post by GATRKGA » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:44 pm

Routes are being axed at express and sent back to mainline? Since when?

Express equally has to work for the carrot and stick to function.

If the conscience is that you go to Encore get to ac mainline, that will be the end of express.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#11 Post by Rowdy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:35 pm

There was rumour circulated that some of the regional route structure could be repatriated to mainline. Simply a bargaining tool AC must be pushing to aid in their plan to shove more ROUGE expansion down the throats of the ACPA membership.

So far, nothing has happened or been planned.

Looks to me as simply managements negotiating tactics.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#12 Post by fish4life » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:38 pm

It could also be routes that are maturing and require larger equipment to
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#13 Post by atphat » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:16 am

Rouge is a brand. The repatriation of CPA routes will be done under LOU74. Which is Rouges WAWCON. IF the AIP passes of course.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#14 Post by tailgunner » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:50 am

Not quite Atphat,
The RRA (Regional Replacement Aircraft) will be branded under Rouge (Lou 74), but flown under Art. 25. Mainline work rules with pay TBD.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#15 Post by mbav8r » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:09 am

Meanwhile, a US regional just signed an agreement with their pilots to allow pilots from other non affiliated far121 operations to carry in YOS for pay and pension!
XJT AND ASA MECS APPROVE AGREEMENT FOR INDUSTRY EXPERIENCE CREDIT
This week, the XJT and ASA MECs reached a tentative agreement with ExpressJet management on a new program that will allow current ExpressJet pilots and new-hire applicants with previous FAR Part 121 experience to count years of service with another carrier toward their total longevity at ExpressJet Airlines.
Program highlights include:
Pilots will be able to count up to 10 years of previous FAR Part 121 experience toward longevity for hourly pay on their equipment and seat.
Pilots will be able to count up to 10 years of previous FAR Part 121 experience toward longevity for benefits including 401(k) match, defined contribution, and vacation accrual.
Applicants must have separated from their prior employer in good standing.
Applicants must have a minimum of one year of prior FAR Part 121 experience to qualify for this program.
Current ExpressJet pilots who have previously separated in good standing from any FAR Part 121 carrier will receive the benefits of this agreement upon date of signing.
New-hire pilots will be placed at the bottom of the seniority list.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#16 Post by TheStig » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:46 am

Rowdy wrote:There was rumour circulated that some of the regional route structure could be repatriated to mainline. Simply a bargaining tool AC must be pushing to aid in their plan to shove more ROUGE expansion down the throats of the ACPA membership.

So far, nothing has happened or been planned.

Looks to me as simply managements negotiating tactics.
Anyone else miss the cheerful, happy go-lucky pre-Jazz Rowdy?

rouge expansion has been negotiated, I'm not sure how much shoving was used? There is contractual language to bring regional routes back, voting closes mid-month.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#17 Post by mbav8r » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:09 pm

TheStig wrote:
Rowdy wrote:There was rumour circulated that some of the regional route structure could be repatriated to mainline. Simply a bargaining tool AC must be pushing to aid in their plan to shove more ROUGE expansion down the throats of the ACPA membership.

So far, nothing has happened or been planned.

Looks to me as simply managements negotiating tactics.
Anyone else miss the cheerful, happy go-lucky pre-Jazz Rowdy?

rouge expansion has been negotiated, I'm not sure how much shoving was used? There is contractual language to bring regional routes back, voting closes mid-month.
Stig, where do you stand on the issue, your vote aside, do you think it's a good thing that AC pilots are essentially voting to "bring regional routes back" at a reduced rate?
Wages to be determine but guaranteed to be lower than mainline rates, otherwise what's the point, the language even referenced a blended pairing, so if you have a four day pairing, of which 6 of the 12 legs are RRA flying, those 6 legs are at the reduced rate.
This is the part that baffles me, historically AC has started some new routes with Express and once it becomes viable to put a mainline aircraft on the route, they repatriated that flying, now they will do the same thing at a reduced rate. So, you sell your soul to the devil, what are you getting for it?
Also, apparently there's this shortage of pilots occurring and it is very likely AC would need to up gauge some routes as Express finds it harder to fill seats, again you are giving them a reduced cost on a commercial need, I hope you're getting some major improvements for this.
As a Jazz pilot who is happy to stay put, I truly hope that you are getting some major improvements and this has nothing to do with, "sticking it to them" syndrome, which I thought we were getting past and hopefully still headed that way.
Your thoughts?
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#18 Post by rudder » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:20 pm

The AC TA will pass. Particularly after the Jalmer Johnson letter.

As for RRA - in 2019 AC will likely approach ACPA with a proposal to keep the 190's in service after the c-series arrive in exchange for lower pay rates. The ACPA MEC will take the company proposal to the pilots as a stand alone issue arguing that in exchange for a pay reduction there will be incremental CA positions available.

Whether it passes or fails will not matter to ACPA so they will likely take no preferred position on the matter and let the pilots make the decision. My guess is it will pass given the CA positions on the 190 will be going at 1 year or less of service.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#19 Post by Rowdy » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:28 pm

TheStig wrote:
Anyone else miss the cheerful, happy go-lucky pre-Jazz Rowdy?
.
I miss him too :rolleyes:
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#20 Post by GATRKGA » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:06 pm

It's starting to smell like the end of expansion at express... is that how anyone else sees it?

Man oh man... express will be a tough sell if it both doesn't lead to mainline or offer quick upgrades as it historically has to date
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#21 Post by rudder » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:33 pm

GATRKGA wrote:It's starting to smell like the end of expansion at express... is that how anyone else sees it?
Excluding the 1900's, the Express fleet is 152 aircraft. That is probably as big as it will get considering known planned aircraft retirements and aging fleet. The RRA language will give AC the ability to replace 25 of the 75 seat Express jets using the surplus 190's if ACPA gives AC what it wants for the 190 pay rate. In theory, AC could then go out and acquire other used 190's and expand the RRA to replace all of the Express 75 seat jet flying. Going from 75 to 97 seats is not a meaningful capacity increase and the 190's are the most comfortable sub-100 seat aircraft on the market. And once JetBlue announces a 190 replacement, there will be many first generation 190's available at attractive pricing.

The only person who knows the actual plan is on the top floor of AC HQ. Express was all about getting a better deal on labour expense. The more that the AC unions do to give AC lower cost and increased productivity, the more likely AC will remain in the sub-100 seat business.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#22 Post by altiplano » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:42 am

Rowdy wrote:There was rumour circulated that some of the regional route structure could be repatriated to mainline. Simply a bargaining tool AC must be pushing to aid in their plan to shove more ROUGE expansion down the throats of the ACPA membership.

So far, nothing has happened or been planned.

Looks to me as simply managements negotiating tactics.
It is being voted on now. ACPA is so stupid.

They've been tricked into allowing more 320s to be operated at second tier wawcon, ie. rouge, so Air Canada can use larger aircraft on routes that they need them on. Fact is if we vote 'No' they will still need to fly the larger aircraft on those routes to support their growth strategy.

Sad to see all the lapdogs eating it up without understanding the implications that we will face moving forward.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#23 Post by TheStig » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:27 am

mbav8r wrote: Stig, where do you stand on the issue, your vote aside, do you think it's a good thing that AC pilots are essentially voting to "bring regional routes back" at a reduced rate?
Wages to be determine but guaranteed to be lower than mainline rates, otherwise what's the point, the language even referenced a blended pairing, so if you have a four day pairing, of which 6 of the 12 legs are RRA flying, those 6 legs are at the reduced rate.
This is the part that baffles me, historically AC has started some new routes with Express and once it becomes viable to put a mainline aircraft on the route, they repatriated that flying, now they will do the same thing at a reduced rate. So, you sell your soul to the devil, what are you getting for it?
Also, apparently there's this shortage of pilots occurring and it is very likely AC would need to up gauge some routes as Express finds it harder to fill seats, again you are giving them a reduced cost on a commercial need, I hope you're getting some major improvements for this.
As a Jazz pilot who is happy to stay put, I truly hope that you are getting some major improvements and this has nothing to do with, "sticking it to them" syndrome, which I thought we were getting past and hopefully still headed that way.
Your thoughts?
I'm not sure where you've got your information, and i have no idea what Rudder is talking about(!)? The reference to the Regional Route Replacement is in LOU74 (ie Rouge).
Here's how it reads, any route that has been at express for a 12 month period can be replaced by mainline using an aircraft (other than a B757 or E190) and operated under LOU74. That aircraft would not be counted under the growth/sink (mainline vs. rouge) ratio negotiated under this deal. However, with respect to the overall ratio of mainline/regional scope the Regional Route replacement aircraft are counted as Mainline aircraft.

So what does it mean? AC can upgauge a route like YYZ-MSY with a rouge A319 and redeploy the Jazz CRJ705 or SR E175 to BNA.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#24 Post by gtanorth » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:49 am

TheStig wrote:
mbav8r wrote: Stig, where do you stand on the issue, your vote aside, do you think it's a good thing that AC pilots are essentially voting to "bring regional routes back" at a reduced rate?
Wages to be determine but guaranteed to be lower than mainline rates, otherwise what's the point, the language even referenced a blended pairing, so if you have a four day pairing, of which 6 of the 12 legs are RRA flying, those 6 legs are at the reduced rate.
This is the part that baffles me, historically AC has started some new routes with Express and once it becomes viable to put a mainline aircraft on the route, they repatriated that flying, now they will do the same thing at a reduced rate. So, you sell your soul to the devil, what are you getting for it?
Also, apparently there's this shortage of pilots occurring and it is very likely AC would need to up gauge some routes as Express finds it harder to fill seats, again you are giving them a reduced cost on a commercial need, I hope you're getting some major improvements for this.
As a Jazz pilot who is happy to stay put, I truly hope that you are getting some major improvements and this has nothing to do with, "sticking it to them" syndrome, which I thought we were getting past and hopefully still headed that way.
Your thoughts?
I'm not sure where you've got your information, and i have no idea what Rudder is talking about(!)? The reference to the Regional Route Replacement is in LOU74 (ie Rouge).
Here's how it reads, any route that has been at express for a 12 month period can be replaced by mainline using an aircraft (other than a B757 or E190) and operated under LOU74. That aircraft would not be counted under the growth/sink (mainline vs. rouge) ratio negotiated under this deal. However, with respect to the overall ratio of mainline/regional scope the Regional Route replacement aircraft are counted as Mainline aircraft.

So what does it mean? AC can upgauge a route like YYZ-MSY with a rouge A319 and redeploy the Jazz CRJ705 or SR E175 to BNA.
The math is simple. If the Express CASM is more than anything mainline/rouge can do the work for the work will and should go back to mainline/rouge/whatever they want to call it. CASM drives the decision on who grows and who shrinks. Not sure why this is even a string - it's dead simple. The only consideration outside of CASM is the ACPA language.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#25 Post by GATRKGA » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:17 am

What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?
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