PML between Express Carriers

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rudder
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by rudder »

GATRKGA wrote:It's starting to smell like the end of expansion at express... is that how anyone else sees it?
Excluding the 1900's, the Express fleet is 152 aircraft. That is probably as big as it will get considering known planned aircraft retirements and aging fleet. The RRA language will give AC the ability to replace 25 of the 75 seat Express jets using the surplus 190's if ACPA gives AC what it wants for the 190 pay rate. In theory, AC could then go out and acquire other used 190's and expand the RRA to replace all of the Express 75 seat jet flying. Going from 75 to 97 seats is not a meaningful capacity increase and the 190's are the most comfortable sub-100 seat aircraft on the market. And once JetBlue announces a 190 replacement, there will be many first generation 190's available at attractive pricing.

The only person who knows the actual plan is on the top floor of AC HQ. Express was all about getting a better deal on labour expense. The more that the AC unions do to give AC lower cost and increased productivity, the more likely AC will remain in the sub-100 seat business.
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altiplano
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by altiplano »

Rowdy wrote:There was rumour circulated that some of the regional route structure could be repatriated to mainline. Simply a bargaining tool AC must be pushing to aid in their plan to shove more ROUGE expansion down the throats of the ACPA membership.

So far, nothing has happened or been planned.

Looks to me as simply managements negotiating tactics.
It is being voted on now. ACPA is so stupid.

They've been tricked into allowing more 320s to be operated at second tier wawcon, ie. rouge, so Air Canada can use larger aircraft on routes that they need them on. Fact is if we vote 'No' they will still need to fly the larger aircraft on those routes to support their growth strategy.

Sad to see all the lapdogs eating it up without understanding the implications that we will face moving forward.
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TheStig
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by TheStig »

mbav8r wrote: Stig, where do you stand on the issue, your vote aside, do you think it's a good thing that AC pilots are essentially voting to "bring regional routes back" at a reduced rate?
Wages to be determine but guaranteed to be lower than mainline rates, otherwise what's the point, the language even referenced a blended pairing, so if you have a four day pairing, of which 6 of the 12 legs are RRA flying, those 6 legs are at the reduced rate.
This is the part that baffles me, historically AC has started some new routes with Express and once it becomes viable to put a mainline aircraft on the route, they repatriated that flying, now they will do the same thing at a reduced rate. So, you sell your soul to the devil, what are you getting for it?
Also, apparently there's this shortage of pilots occurring and it is very likely AC would need to up gauge some routes as Express finds it harder to fill seats, again you are giving them a reduced cost on a commercial need, I hope you're getting some major improvements for this.
As a Jazz pilot who is happy to stay put, I truly hope that you are getting some major improvements and this has nothing to do with, "sticking it to them" syndrome, which I thought we were getting past and hopefully still headed that way.
Your thoughts?
I'm not sure where you've got your information, and i have no idea what Rudder is talking about(!)? The reference to the Regional Route Replacement is in LOU74 (ie Rouge).
Here's how it reads, any route that has been at express for a 12 month period can be replaced by mainline using an aircraft (other than a B757 or E190) and operated under LOU74. That aircraft would not be counted under the growth/sink (mainline vs. rouge) ratio negotiated under this deal. However, with respect to the overall ratio of mainline/regional scope the Regional Route replacement aircraft are counted as Mainline aircraft.

So what does it mean? AC can upgauge a route like YYZ-MSY with a rouge A319 and redeploy the Jazz CRJ705 or SR E175 to BNA.
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gtanorth
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by gtanorth »

TheStig wrote:
mbav8r wrote: Stig, where do you stand on the issue, your vote aside, do you think it's a good thing that AC pilots are essentially voting to "bring regional routes back" at a reduced rate?
Wages to be determine but guaranteed to be lower than mainline rates, otherwise what's the point, the language even referenced a blended pairing, so if you have a four day pairing, of which 6 of the 12 legs are RRA flying, those 6 legs are at the reduced rate.
This is the part that baffles me, historically AC has started some new routes with Express and once it becomes viable to put a mainline aircraft on the route, they repatriated that flying, now they will do the same thing at a reduced rate. So, you sell your soul to the devil, what are you getting for it?
Also, apparently there's this shortage of pilots occurring and it is very likely AC would need to up gauge some routes as Express finds it harder to fill seats, again you are giving them a reduced cost on a commercial need, I hope you're getting some major improvements for this.
As a Jazz pilot who is happy to stay put, I truly hope that you are getting some major improvements and this has nothing to do with, "sticking it to them" syndrome, which I thought we were getting past and hopefully still headed that way.
Your thoughts?
I'm not sure where you've got your information, and i have no idea what Rudder is talking about(!)? The reference to the Regional Route Replacement is in LOU74 (ie Rouge).
Here's how it reads, any route that has been at express for a 12 month period can be replaced by mainline using an aircraft (other than a B757 or E190) and operated under LOU74. That aircraft would not be counted under the growth/sink (mainline vs. rouge) ratio negotiated under this deal. However, with respect to the overall ratio of mainline/regional scope the Regional Route replacement aircraft are counted as Mainline aircraft.

So what does it mean? AC can upgauge a route like YYZ-MSY with a rouge A319 and redeploy the Jazz CRJ705 or SR E175 to BNA.
The math is simple. If the Express CASM is more than anything mainline/rouge can do the work for the work will and should go back to mainline/rouge/whatever they want to call it. CASM drives the decision on who grows and who shrinks. Not sure why this is even a string - it's dead simple. The only consideration outside of CASM is the ACPA language.
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GATRKGA
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by GATRKGA »

What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?
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atphat
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by atphat »

tailgunner wrote:Not quite Atphat,
The RRA (Regional Replacement Aircraft) will be branded under Rouge (Lou 74), but flown under Art. 25. Mainline work rules with pay TBD.
Cheers
Ummmmm. No. Pay TBD. Socialization. DPG? TTG?
Are these mainline work rules?
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GATRKGA
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by GATRKGA »

Good bye quick upgrades at jazz/sky regional/ggn...

It's probably best to hold off on the sidelines now for an OTS entry.

What are the two outcomes of this vote? Ac pilot's vote in favour of the repatriation or mainline does it anyway since most express routes have now been operating for more than 12 months ...

Or am I missing something?
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ARGO
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by ARGO »

What a discouraging thread. When did all of this start to surface? What is moral like at the express level with news like this floating around?
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gtanorth
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by gtanorth »

Cost per seat mile
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Last edited by gtanorth on Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
gtanorth
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by gtanorth »

ARGO wrote:What a discouraging thread. When did all of this start to surface? What is moral like at the express level with news like this floating around?
This should not be discouraging at all. The goal is to expand at all levels of Air Canada, keep opening new markets and keep expanding the international footprint. Even if some work goes back to mainline those aircraft still need to be flown so the name on the paycheck may change from ABC Express to AC and those pilots will come from ABC EXpress (not literally of course but in general numbers - flow) so the EXpress pilots that want to go to AC should see this as a good thing. Up gauging aircraft means upward movement for pilots! How is that discouraging?
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mbav8r
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by mbav8r »

gtanorth wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?

Cost per Available Seat Mile. The issue at hand is can AC/Rouge fly routes at 90 seats (or 90+) that Jazz is flying with 76 seats and then can the market support the extra seats. If the gap in WACON narrows between Jazz and Rouge or even mainline flying 190's then routes should and will go to mainline. Any business would do the same.
To your point, ACs strategy is to funnel Americans through the three main hubs, so when they deploy AC/Rouge on "Express" routes, they will redeploy Express on new or under performing routes. I don't see this as a problem, maybe if AC/Rouge matched our wages, that could be a problem.
To those who think this is going to stop the quick upgrades at Jazz, the plan is to hire more than 400 pilots this year and over three hundred next year, obviously upper management knows something we don't.
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gtanorth
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by gtanorth »

mbav8r wrote:
gtanorth wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?

Cost per Available Seat Mile. The issue at hand is can AC/Rouge fly routes at 90 seats (or 90+) that Jazz is flying with 76 seats and then can the market support the extra seats. If the gap in WACON narrows between Jazz and Rouge or even mainline flying 190's then routes should and will go to mainline. Any business would do the same.
To your point, ACs strategy is to funnel Americans through the three main hubs, so when they deploy AC/Rouge on "Express" routes, they will redeploy Express on new or under performing routes. I don't see this as a problem, maybe if AC/Rouge matched our wages, that could be a problem.
To those who think this is going to stop the quick upgrades at Jazz, the plan is to hire more than 400 pilots this year and over three hundred next year, obviously upper management knows something we don't.
Agree - the goal is to always develop markets and drive continued expansion. Upgauging is the natural goal.
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rxl
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by rxl »

As a long time Express pilot, if this proposal provides more and better jobs for pilots then I'm all for it.
If it becomes an excercise of the management "whipsaw" then we are all in trouble.
Since they are key leaders of the piloting "profession" in Canada, I sincerely hope that ACPA/ALPA leadership are up to the task and move beyond the tribalism of the past.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by infiniteregulus »

Is it just me or does gtanorth sound like a current/past manager, GGN to be specific based on previous posts..?
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180
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by 180 »

DEFINITION of 'Cost Per Available Seat Mile - CASM'

A common unit of measurement used to compare the efficiency of various airlines. It is obtained by dividing the operating costs of an airline by available seat miles (ASM). Generally, the lower the CASM, the more profitable and efficient the airline.
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Fanblade
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by Fanblade »

rxl wrote: If it becomes an excercise of the management "whipsaw" then we are all in trouble.
Since they are key leaders of the piloting "profession" in Canada, I sincerely hope that ACPA/ALPA leadership are up to the task and move beyond the tribalism of the past.
This is a company initiative due in part to regional pilot retention issues. ACPA didn't suggest it.

It will amount to a small handful of work as the plan only works on high frequency city pairs. Aircraft that do get displaced will go trans boarder.

It's a nothing issue
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by Art Garfunkel »

Fanblade wrote:
rxl wrote: If it becomes an excercise of the management "whipsaw" then we are all in trouble.
Since they are key leaders of the piloting "profession" in Canada, I sincerely hope that ACPA/ALPA leadership are up to the task and move beyond the tribalism of the past.
This is a company initiative due in part to regional pilot retention issues. ACPA didn't suggest it.

It will amount to a small handful of work as the plan only works on high frequency city pairs. Aircraft that do get displaced will go trans boarder.

It's a nothing issue

I hope and somewhat believe this is a nothing issue.

The pilot retention issue will become larger as AC has come to the point where they can't poach the Express carriers anymore and keep their schedules intact. (or at least the type of pilot they want) The "up to 80 percent" will become more evident in upcoming ground schools with likely only 20 percent being represented from the express carriers.

The Express carrier pilots need to band together and negotiate a formal, in writing, PML where every pilot has a real opportunity to move on to mainline. In my opinion, passing an upgrade at an Express carrier should be the only requirement. Too many first officers are not interested in upgrading as they feel it may impact their chance to move on. Once again in my opinion, this should be a huge red flag to the AC flight ops management.

I have said this before, being at Encore and Porter is probably the best spot to be, in gaining employment with AC. AC flight ops management have demonstrated time and time again that they are not interested in Express brand pilots. Even though they give and pour blood, sweat, and tears for the AIR CANADA BRAND.

Art
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co-joe
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by co-joe »

GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?
Cost per Available Seat Mile

Took me the whole page to figure out what RRA and MEC were...carry on
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GATRKGA
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by GATRKGA »

co-joe wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?
Cost per Available Seat Mile

Took me the whole page to figure out what RRA and MEC were...carry on
So if a trip is 1000 miles, and has 100 available seats on it. That means each seat has to pay for at least 10 miles worth of expenses per seat to break even... Or is there another way this is calculated?
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TheStig
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

Post by TheStig »

If a trip costs $10,000 to operate and is 1000nm and the aircraft has 200 seats. The CASM is 1000(nm)X200(seats)=200,000(ASM).

$10,000 / 200,000ASM = $0.05 CASM

The post above about CASM ruling all is FALSE. There are several other factors that factor in, namely RASM, or Revenue per ASM. A rouge A321 with 200 seats would have a lower CASM than a Jazz CRJ, but if you can only sell 50 seats once a day, that route would be better served by the RJ.

CASM isn't a fixed value for an aircraft either, flying a jet under 300nm isn't very cost effective and widebody jets only seem to come out ahead (on CASM) of narrow bodies beyond 2000-3000nm. Bigger is usually better, and smaller narrow bodies have become cost effective on longer thin, less competitive routes, or those that aren't overly price sensitive. For AC with the EMJ that translates to YYZ-SEA, YYZ-PDX, YYZ-YQR, YYZ-DEN, YYZ-YOW (where frequency is important).

While there may be thought that has been given to future staff shortages at the regionals, the main reason the Regional Replacement Aircraft is going to be implemented is because many regional routes have grown to the point where they would be more cost effectively served by a larger aircraft. For example, YYZ-BNA (Nashville) is now flown 3 times a day on RJ's, instead of adding a forth RJ per day, why not service the route using 3 A319's daily?

Fuel and crew costs are the obvious factors associated with a routes CASM, other factors include the cost of having a crew overnight and paid expenses versus starting at home base early and conducting a turn, the complexity of having multiple types service one route, the availability of gates has become an issue at YYZ and YUL, not to mention ATC costs, and landing fees.
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