Air Transat YOW

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photofly
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

There's nothing casual about it, and I'm still here. My only comment arising from the report is that I'd have been damn sure to tell the cabin crew I wanted - I required - to get off, and I'd have done my best to make sure the aircraft commander knew that.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

This quote tells me all I need to know about those running the company, Complex. They really, truly, don't care about their customers. Yeah, that offends me. Same as United:

"The experience of the conditions on board the grounded flights, however, was a “matter of perception,” said Matthew Jackson, the director of flight safety for Air Transat, when asked whether the pilots were aware of how passengers were feeling.

“If I’m managing a delay and I’m talking to a passenger who’s a very nervous flyer, a 15-minute delay may be a terrible thing for that passenger,” Jackson told the hearing. “Their perception is different than the frequent flyer … who’s used to delays.”

The flight safety director further suggested the pilots might have even been hotter than some passengers on account of the polyester uniforms they wear. I’m not traveling in shorts and sandals and a T-shirt,” he said. “So I think I would probably feel the heat a little bit more than some travellers.”

Yeah. It's all about you.
No apology. No humility, from an exec at the company. . What a total loser.

YOW isn't responsibily for fuelling. They made a clear statement, so I'm unclear to me how they are culpable. If they are shown to be lying, I'll retract my comment. Fuelling company? AT chose them. Regardless on that, it's on AT.

And yeah, some airlines just aren't in the media nearly as much, at least that I notice. Think about it, and why.

This seems to me to be about saving money for the company, however possible. . I'd be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise.

Anyway can all agree to disagree, that is anyone's right.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

Bombardier leadership, (who have many, many defenders here for some bizzare reason).

Bombardier brutally screws up its contract with a key customer. Customer says, you don't get to bid on a future contract.

Bombardier SUES customer, saying "we have a right to bid". Bizzare.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transp ... again.html

Only in Canada.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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The YOW airport authority

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

The YOW ramp, the Hangar 14 areas and de-icing bays in YOW are uncontrolled as far as Nav Canada is concerned and managed by the YOW airport which decides who parks where. Each time an airliner arrives, NavCanada contacts the YOW airport to ask where it should be parked.

After all gates and parking positions had been used, the controllers began parking aircraft on taxiway C and on runway 07/25. That included the Transat flights that were affected.

When the aircraft asked for fuel, they were told they would need to be moved to a gate or a ramp before they could be refueled or serviced. They were kept on the taxiway from 1 to 2 hours. No deplaning, Air stairs or service was possible at that time they were told.

But then the Air Canada 777 that arrived after the Transat flights was refueled on Taxiway C with an YOW airport authority escort and a waiver from them after the YOW airport authority claims that the 777 crew stated they were tight on duty.

The fueler stated that when the aircraft were subsequently moved from the runways and taxiways to the ramp areas to be serviced, the YOW airport, which was managing which aircraft was parked where, parked several aircraft in a manner where their wings and refuelling panels and connectors were over the grass, where the refuelling trucks are not allowed to go. Several aircraft had to be moved a second time before refuelling could occur. This is one of the reasons several aircraft were refueled out of sequence.

Another reason some aircraft were refueled out of sequence is because when they were moved, they were parked by the YOW airport in such a manner that one was blocking the other, so it made sense to refuel the one which was blocking first, since the one behind it could no possibly leave until the one in front had refueled and left.

The way the YOW airport authority repositioned the aircraft on the ramps and parked them without taking account of when they had landed and how long they had been waiting for fuel caused further delay for several.

If one listens to Live ATC for YOW on July 31, which I have downloaded and listened to, one can clearly hear the YOW airport duty manager on the ground frequency, directing from a radio equipped follow-me car, the ground controllers where and how he wants the aircraft parked.

Finally, the YOW airport made a second direct intervention to the fueler, on behalf of KLM this time, to give it priority fueling when it's pilots claimed they were tight on duty. It so happens that unlike the Transat flights, the KLM was immediately parked by the YOW airport authority to a position where it could be fueled immediately.

The Air Transat flights which landed between 1700 and 1730 local were not relocated to the ramp before 1915 and then again some were parked there in a way that they could not be refueled or where they were blocked from exit by other aircraft which had to be refueled first.

The fueler was just rolling with the punches, and was receiving calls every few seconds and was doing what they could with their two drivers.

They said that refueling Air Canada on the taxiway with the escort etc monopolized one on the two drivers and his truck for so long that they stated to the YOW airport they would no longer accept to do others in that way.

All this is on tape.......
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by digits_ »

That might all be true, and might maybe all be out of Air Transat's control, the fact is they still kept the pax on board for 5-6 hours.

Which brings me back to an old question: how long before this becomes an emergency? How long were they going to wait without fuel, without apu? 7 hours? 8? 12? 24? 48?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Ypilot »

digits_ wrote:That might all be true, and might maybe all be out of Air Transat's control, the fact is they still kept the pax on board for 5-6 hours.

Which brings me back to an old question: how long before this becomes an emergency? How long were they going to wait without fuel, without apu? 7 hours? 8? 12? 24? 48?
The other day I was in that dash-8. No apu... bouhouuu, it was hot, omg red alert in yyz. I should have called 911.
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digits_
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by digits_ »

Ypilot wrote:
digits_ wrote:That might all be true, and might maybe all be out of Air Transat's control, the fact is they still kept the pax on board for 5-6 hours.

Which brings me back to an old question: how long before this becomes an emergency? How long were they going to wait without fuel, without apu? 7 hours? 8? 12? 24? 48?
The other day I was in that dash-8. No apu... bouhouuu, it was hot, omg red alert in yyz. I should have called 911.
So give me a number, how long?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by complexintentions »

digits_ wrote:That might all be true, and might maybe all be out of Air Transat's control, the fact is they still kept the pax on board for 5-6 hours.

Which brings me back to an old question: how long before this becomes an emergency? How long were they going to wait without fuel, without apu? 7 hours? 8? 12? 24? 48?
Even when presented with recorded evidence that what Gilles says IS true, not "might be", you still try and cast doubt. Amazing what cannot be seen when one willfully chooses not to see it.

Why don't you just give the number you'd like, seeing as you obviously have no real interest in anyone else's answers anyway?

An airborne aircraft that runs out of fuel is an emergency. Hopefully you can grasp that one on the ground isn't quite the same.
If one listens to Live ATC for YOW on July 31, which I have downloaded and listened to, one can clearly hear the YOW airport duty manager on the ground frequency, directing from a radio equipped follow-me car, the ground controllers where and how he wants the aircraft parked.
I can personally attest to how long it takes to refuel a B777. And from trucks as opposed to hydrants it can take a long, long time. Putting AC and others at the head of the queue - and unequivocally, rookiepilot, this was at the direction of YOW - was a major, major f$ckup.

As I said - culpable. And as someone who worked as a fueller in an earlier life, I can also attest that the priority of fuelling is not dictated by the folks manning the trucks, either.
rookiepilot wrote:
The flight safety director further suggested the pilots might have even been hotter than some passengers on account of the polyester uniforms they wear. I’m not traveling in shorts and sandals and a T-shirt,” he said. “So I think I would probably feel the heat a little bit more than some travellers.”

Yeah. It's all about you.
No apology. No humility, from an exec at the company. . What a total loser.

YOW isn't responsibily for fuelling. They made a clear statement, so I'm unclear to me how they are culpable. If they are shown to be lying, I'll retract my comment. Fuelling company? AT chose them. Regardless on that, it's on AT.

And yeah, some airlines just aren't in the media nearly as much, at least that I notice. Think about it, and why.

This seems to me to be about saving money for the company, however possible. . I'd be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise.

Anyway can all agree to disagree, that is anyone's right.
Again, it's so weird how you choose to totally dismiss one company's statement while blindly swallowing YOW's ass-covering statement whole. You're so hell-bent on seeing what you perceive as trying to avoid responsibility that you choose to filter all comments through that incredibly biased view. As you say, your hobby is teaching this, so I guess it figures. When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. I see the remark about the crew being just as, or more uncomfortable, as the pax as simply pointing out that the crew was certainly not lounging about sipping cool drinks while the pax suffered. On the contrary you can be certain they were doing EVERYTHING possible to expedite the situation. I'm not quite sure what you expected, for the flight safety director to come on tv and fall on a sword?

Tell me exactly how money would be saved by deliberately not fueling an aircraft and furthering a diversionary delay?

Seriously I do wonder a little bit about the lack of logic sometimes.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

20 aircraft diverted to YOW that day including many wide bodies and a 380. Several thousand passengers. The 4 AT flights alone had over 1000 passengers.
OUT of the 20, not one deplaned.
Out of the 20, 8 were on the ground over 3 hours.
The longest was the AT whose APU ran out of fuel, not when it frst landed sometime after 1700, but about 4 hours later.
The second longest was an Air Canada flight which was over 5 hours in YOW.
The fueler arrived to the AT flight minutes after the APU shut down, as well as air stairs and à GPU.
The aircraft had been on battery power and without a APU for less than a couple minutes when a passenger panicked and called 911
Power and ventilation was restored within 5 minutes.

The emergency crews arrived at the same time as the fueler within minutes of the APU failure.
Even then, no one, including the caller, expressed a desire to disembark. And none did, even after they were offered to do so. The caller first said he called 911 because he felt faint when the APU failed and the aircraft went on emergency power. A real hero. And famous too.
Good thing that other slide pulling hero was not on board as well.

The captain had issues to deal with with regards to refuelling without power, was unable to restart the APU for a vapor lock had been created in the fuel line which required bleeding. He now needed an Air Cart to get the engines going. He had to leave all that to respond to the inqireries of the first responders and learn the nature of the emergency on his aircraft.

The 8 doors were opened for ventilation which obligated the 8 flight attendents to remain at their doors. That is the only reason the first responders distributed water to the passengers. not because the aircraft had no water but the crew were stuck at their doors, the FO was required by regulations to stay in the Flight Deck for refueling was in progress with passengers on board and the captain was taking care of refueling downstairs. The Flight Director was attending the faint hero with the responders.

The aircraft was refueled, the emergency vehicles were asked to move, the air start was connected, the doors were closed, and one engine was started manually on the third attempt after two failed automatic attempts, for the First Air air start unit could not provide any more than 15 PSI of air.

Once the engines were started, Air conditioning was restored, and the aircraft was able to finally make it to YUL, with all passengers on board, including the hero and family, but only after the captain had MELed his now U/S APU and obtained a release number from dispatch.

He did a fantastic job.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Old fella »

Hmmm....... plenty of "he said, she said" here. Fine and fair enough but the CTA hearing will be an interesting read upon release. I believe the CTA wouldn't be conducting a hearing if it felt it wasn't a serious incident. Shall see!
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photofly
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

Giles' post is a classic case of "the operation was a compete success and the surgeon was a hero" while the bigger picture here is that the patient died. Let's give everyone a payrise for a job well done, and move on. Clearly he feels there's nothing to learn here.

His entire post is a fascinating insight into the mindset of a pilot - focused on following procedure, analyzing only whether procedure was followed, and looking for every external excuse for why procedure resulted in a shitty outcome.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by confuzed »

photofly wrote:Giles' post is a classic case of "the operation was a compete success and the surgeon was a hero" while the bigger picture here is that the patient died. Let's give everyone a payrise for a job well done, and move on. Clearly he feels there's nothing to learn here.

His entire post is a fascinating insight into the mindset of a pilot - focused on following procedure, analyzing only whether procedure was followed, and looking for every external excuse for why procedure resulted in a shitty outcome.

Please answer one question for me so that I may know how to respond to you.....

Are you currently or have you EVER been employed as a crew member of a jet operating company?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

You can respond any way you like, or not at all. I'm easy.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:Giles' post is a classic case of "the operation was a compete success and the surgeon was a hero" while the bigger picture here is that the patient died. Let's give everyone a payrise for a job well done, and move on. Clearly he feels there's nothing to learn here.

His entire post is a fascinating insight into the mindset of a pilot - focused on following procedure, analyzing only whether procedure was followed, and looking for every external excuse for why procedure resulted in a shitty outcome.
Yep. Simple question Giles: Why wasn't water passed out much, much, much earlier?

Testimony repeatedly stated little to no water was handed out. Other flights did get water. There's no "taxiway" issue with bringing water over, if they ran out, as indicated.

Money.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

It's fun to microfocus on individual decisions, but not always helpful. However, since Gilles started it, I'll join in.

Maybe it wasnt such a great idea of the aircraft commander to open all 8 doors if it meant nobody could serve water? Or maybe, you know, they could have closed a couple, to allow a trolley to go up and down? Do you really want to claim credit for having lots of water on board when you'd made a decision that meant nobody could serve it? What difference does that make, to a passenger?
. The caller first said he called 911 because he felt faint when the APU failed and the aircraft went on emergency power. A real hero. And famous too.
And, Gilles, by the way, your ridicule of someone who felt ill after hours stuck in their seat and called for help, is noted. It doesn't do you credit.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by confuzed »

photofly wrote:You can respond any way you like, or not at all. I'm easy.

Oh you're one of THOSE types of people....nevermind, why bother engaging with one of your types.


Gilles, thank you for bringing great information to this thread. It is greatly appreciated and refreshing to get some facts that have not been skewed by the media.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

:mrgreen:
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by photofly »

Would it really be so hard to say "We let our customers down, we're sorry, we'll try to learn what we can from this so it doesn't happen again, and if it does we'll man up to that too, and here's some compensation - more than we're obliged to pay, because we love our customers and we want them to be happy"?
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:Would it really be so hard to say "We let our customers down, we're sorry, we'll try to learn what we can from this so it doesn't happen again, and if it does we'll man up to that too, and here's some compensation - more than we're obliged to pay, because we love our customers and we want them to be happy"?
Yeah it's too hard, because that requires displaying a little humility. And humanity.
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Re: Air Transat YOW

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

photofly wrote:Giles' post is a classic case of "the operation was a compete success and the surgeon was a hero" while the bigger picture here is that the patient died. Let's give everyone a payrise for a job well done, and move on. Clearly he feels there's nothing to learn here.

His entire post is a fascinating insight into the mindset of a pilot - focused on following procedure, analyzing only whether procedure was followed, and looking for every external excuse for why procedure resulted in a shitty outcome.
Passengers buy an airline ticket to get them from point A to point B. All passengers arrived at B safely and the same day, after a weather diversion to Ottawa.

Shitty outcome ?
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