PML between Express Carriers

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atphat
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#26 Post by atphat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:20 pm

tailgunner wrote:Not quite Atphat,
The RRA (Regional Replacement Aircraft) will be branded under Rouge (Lou 74), but flown under Art. 25. Mainline work rules with pay TBD.
Cheers
Ummmmm. No. Pay TBD. Socialization. DPG? TTG?
Are these mainline work rules?
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GATRKGA
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#27 Post by GATRKGA » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:06 pm

Good bye quick upgrades at jazz/sky regional/ggn...

It's probably best to hold off on the sidelines now for an OTS entry.

What are the two outcomes of this vote? Ac pilot's vote in favour of the repatriation or mainline does it anyway since most express routes have now been operating for more than 12 months ...

Or am I missing something?
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ARGO
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#28 Post by ARGO » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:09 pm

What a discouraging thread. When did all of this start to surface? What is moral like at the express level with news like this floating around?
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#29 Post by gtanorth » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:22 am

Cost per seat mile
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Last edited by gtanorth on Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

gtanorth
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#30 Post by gtanorth » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:37 am

ARGO wrote:What a discouraging thread. When did all of this start to surface? What is moral like at the express level with news like this floating around?
This should not be discouraging at all. The goal is to expand at all levels of Air Canada, keep opening new markets and keep expanding the international footprint. Even if some work goes back to mainline those aircraft still need to be flown so the name on the paycheck may change from ABC Express to AC and those pilots will come from ABC EXpress (not literally of course but in general numbers - flow) so the EXpress pilots that want to go to AC should see this as a good thing. Up gauging aircraft means upward movement for pilots! How is that discouraging?
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mbav8r
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#31 Post by mbav8r » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:44 am

gtanorth wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?

Cost per Available Seat Mile. The issue at hand is can AC/Rouge fly routes at 90 seats (or 90+) that Jazz is flying with 76 seats and then can the market support the extra seats. If the gap in WACON narrows between Jazz and Rouge or even mainline flying 190's then routes should and will go to mainline. Any business would do the same.
To your point, ACs strategy is to funnel Americans through the three main hubs, so when they deploy AC/Rouge on "Express" routes, they will redeploy Express on new or under performing routes. I don't see this as a problem, maybe if AC/Rouge matched our wages, that could be a problem.
To those who think this is going to stop the quick upgrades at Jazz, the plan is to hire more than 400 pilots this year and over three hundred next year, obviously upper management knows something we don't.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#32 Post by gtanorth » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:49 am

mbav8r wrote:
gtanorth wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?

Cost per Available Seat Mile. The issue at hand is can AC/Rouge fly routes at 90 seats (or 90+) that Jazz is flying with 76 seats and then can the market support the extra seats. If the gap in WACON narrows between Jazz and Rouge or even mainline flying 190's then routes should and will go to mainline. Any business would do the same.
To your point, ACs strategy is to funnel Americans through the three main hubs, so when they deploy AC/Rouge on "Express" routes, they will redeploy Express on new or under performing routes. I don't see this as a problem, maybe if AC/Rouge matched our wages, that could be a problem.
To those who think this is going to stop the quick upgrades at Jazz, the plan is to hire more than 400 pilots this year and over three hundred next year, obviously upper management knows something we don't.
Agree - the goal is to always develop markets and drive continued expansion. Upgauging is the natural goal.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#33 Post by rxl » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:50 am

As a long time Express pilot, if this proposal provides more and better jobs for pilots then I'm all for it.
If it becomes an excercise of the management "whipsaw" then we are all in trouble.
Since they are key leaders of the piloting "profession" in Canada, I sincerely hope that ACPA/ALPA leadership are up to the task and move beyond the tribalism of the past.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#34 Post by infiniteregulus » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:34 pm

Is it just me or does gtanorth sound like a current/past manager, GGN to be specific based on previous posts..?
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180
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#35 Post by 180 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:51 am

DEFINITION of 'Cost Per Available Seat Mile - CASM'

A common unit of measurement used to compare the efficiency of various airlines. It is obtained by dividing the operating costs of an airline by available seat miles (ASM). Generally, the lower the CASM, the more profitable and efficient the airline.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#36 Post by Fanblade » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:29 am

rxl wrote: If it becomes an excercise of the management "whipsaw" then we are all in trouble.
Since they are key leaders of the piloting "profession" in Canada, I sincerely hope that ACPA/ALPA leadership are up to the task and move beyond the tribalism of the past.
This is a company initiative due in part to regional pilot retention issues. ACPA didn't suggest it.

It will amount to a small handful of work as the plan only works on high frequency city pairs. Aircraft that do get displaced will go trans boarder.

It's a nothing issue
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#37 Post by Art Garfunkel » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:16 am

Fanblade wrote:
rxl wrote: If it becomes an excercise of the management "whipsaw" then we are all in trouble.
Since they are key leaders of the piloting "profession" in Canada, I sincerely hope that ACPA/ALPA leadership are up to the task and move beyond the tribalism of the past.
This is a company initiative due in part to regional pilot retention issues. ACPA didn't suggest it.

It will amount to a small handful of work as the plan only works on high frequency city pairs. Aircraft that do get displaced will go trans boarder.

It's a nothing issue

I hope and somewhat believe this is a nothing issue.

The pilot retention issue will become larger as AC has come to the point where they can't poach the Express carriers anymore and keep their schedules intact. (or at least the type of pilot they want) The "up to 80 percent" will become more evident in upcoming ground schools with likely only 20 percent being represented from the express carriers.

The Express carrier pilots need to band together and negotiate a formal, in writing, PML where every pilot has a real opportunity to move on to mainline. In my opinion, passing an upgrade at an Express carrier should be the only requirement. Too many first officers are not interested in upgrading as they feel it may impact their chance to move on. Once again in my opinion, this should be a huge red flag to the AC flight ops management.

I have said this before, being at Encore and Porter is probably the best spot to be, in gaining employment with AC. AC flight ops management have demonstrated time and time again that they are not interested in Express brand pilots. Even though they give and pour blood, sweat, and tears for the AIR CANADA BRAND.

Art
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#38 Post by co-joe » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:49 pm

GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?
Cost per Available Seat Mile

Took me the whole page to figure out what RRA and MEC were...carry on
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#39 Post by GATRKGA » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:03 pm

co-joe wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:What's CASM and why does it determine where growth goes ?
Cost per Available Seat Mile

Took me the whole page to figure out what RRA and MEC were...carry on
So if a trip is 1000 miles, and has 100 available seats on it. That means each seat has to pay for at least 10 miles worth of expenses per seat to break even... Or is there another way this is calculated?
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#40 Post by TheStig » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:56 am

If a trip costs $10,000 to operate and is 1000nm and the aircraft has 200 seats. The CASM is 1000(nm)X200(seats)=200,000(ASM).

$10,000 / 200,000ASM = $0.05 CASM

The post above about CASM ruling all is FALSE. There are several other factors that factor in, namely RASM, or Revenue per ASM. A rouge A321 with 200 seats would have a lower CASM than a Jazz CRJ, but if you can only sell 50 seats once a day, that route would be better served by the RJ.

CASM isn't a fixed value for an aircraft either, flying a jet under 300nm isn't very cost effective and widebody jets only seem to come out ahead (on CASM) of narrow bodies beyond 2000-3000nm. Bigger is usually better, and smaller narrow bodies have become cost effective on longer thin, less competitive routes, or those that aren't overly price sensitive. For AC with the EMJ that translates to YYZ-SEA, YYZ-PDX, YYZ-YQR, YYZ-DEN, YYZ-YOW (where frequency is important).

While there may be thought that has been given to future staff shortages at the regionals, the main reason the Regional Replacement Aircraft is going to be implemented is because many regional routes have grown to the point where they would be more cost effectively served by a larger aircraft. For example, YYZ-BNA (Nashville) is now flown 3 times a day on RJ's, instead of adding a forth RJ per day, why not service the route using 3 A319's daily?

Fuel and crew costs are the obvious factors associated with a routes CASM, other factors include the cost of having a crew overnight and paid expenses versus starting at home base early and conducting a turn, the complexity of having multiple types service one route, the availability of gates has become an issue at YYZ and YUL, not to mention ATC costs, and landing fees.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#41 Post by gtanorth » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:15 am

TheStig wrote:If a trip costs $10,000 to operate and is 1000nm and the aircraft has 200 seats. The CASM is 1000(nm)X200(seats)=200,000(ASM).

$10,000 / 200,000ASM = $0.05 CASM

The post above about CASM ruling all is FALSE. There are several other factors that factor in, namely RASM, or Revenue per ASM. A rouge A321 with 200 seats would have a lower CASM than a Jazz CRJ, but if you can only sell 50 seats once a day, that route would be better served by the RJ.

CASM isn't a fixed value for an aircraft either, flying a jet under 300nm isn't very cost effective and widebody jets only seem to come out ahead (on CASM) of narrow bodies beyond 2000-3000nm. Bigger is usually better, and smaller narrow bodies have become cost effective on longer thin, less competitive routes, or those that aren't overly price sensitive. For AC with the EMJ that translates to YYZ-SEA, YYZ-PDX, YYZ-YQR, YYZ-DEN, YYZ-YOW (where frequency is important).

While there may be thought that has been given to future staff shortages at the regionals, the main reason the Regional Replacement Aircraft is going to be implemented is because many regional routes have grown to the point where they would be more cost effectively served by a larger aircraft. For example, YYZ-BNA (Nashville) is now flown 3 times a day on RJ's, instead of adding a forth RJ per day, why not service the route using 3 A319's daily?

Fuel and crew costs are the obvious factors associated with a routes CASM, other factors include the cost of having a crew overnight and paid expenses versus starting at home base early and conducting a turn, the complexity of having multiple types service one route, the availability of gates has become an issue at YYZ and YUL, not to mention ATC costs, and landing fees.
Agree - everything within reason.
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Re: PML between Express Carriers

#42 Post by co-joe » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:36 pm

CASM is a way of comparing two different aircraft on the same flight. Total cost times number of seats divided by statute miles flown give you cost per mile per seat. Adding more seats to an aircraft or buying a more efficient machine or upgrading components can give better CASM. So can cutting wages and benefits or when fuel goes down in price.

An airline's actual CASM is a closely guarded secret, but can be approximated based on adding up an airline's fixed costs.

Other important terms are RPM or revenue passenger miles. Miles flown with bums in seats.

ASM would be available seat miles, or seats you can sell times total miles.

RPM compared to ASM gives you load factor. Anything over 70% is considered good. Break even load factor is the the percent load that covers your costs only, anything over is profit.



Sorry for the thread drift. Now you can read Flight International Magazine and have a slight idea what they're talking about.
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