Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

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HansDietrich
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Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#1 Post by HansDietrich » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:24 am

Hi everyone,

Do you know when we'll find out the result of the "Aug 31, 2017" Equipment bid? Also, with us new hires, (under 1 year); technically we're frozen on the equipment for 4 years. I've heard that if "Jazz needs you, they'll assign you a new aircraft". Is that realistic? Is it realistic to expect a new aircraft so soon?

Thanks for the replies.

Hans.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#2 Post by skypirate88 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:51 am

They have something like 15 days to post the award. My bet is we will see it just before the vacation bid is released.

As for your other question, I have no idea. I wouldn't get your hopes up though. With the number of training event going on, why would they release you? They would need 2 training events if they did, instead of just 1.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#3 Post by mbav8r » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:06 am

Hans, the answers are in the contract, however the results will be posted 15 days from the closing of the bid which was August 31. Historically it will take the full 15 days to see the results.
Next, the new hire freeze is 48 months but you can bid for a new base and equipment 24 months, if you could not previously hold that base. Not sure exactly how that would be interpreted but I'm thinking if you had bid YUL before and could not hold it on your current equipment, you could bid RJ YUL and get it after 24 months of employment, so not sure if this will help you. In NO case are you prevented from bidding an upgrade, also my understanding is you can bid from the classic to the Q because it is not a full course, just a conversion course.
So if you really want off the classic, my advice would be bid the Q at any base, commute and bid back to your preferred base as a standing bid or bid left seat any base and commute until you can hold your base, but based on some of your other posts, if you're struggling to pay your bills now, commuting is going to cost about 500 a month.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#4 Post by Magnetron » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:11 pm

mbav8r wrote:also my understanding is you can bid from the classic to the Q because it is not a full course, just a conversion course.
So if you really want off the classic, my advice would be bid the Q at any base
I believe that's how it is supposed to be. However I have not seen it once. The only time I have seen someone go from classic dash FO to Q400 FO is during a reduction. Even captains that have bid classic dash thinking they could go Q400 captain since it is not a full course I haven't seen one be successful. So dont hold your breath on that either.

Just my observation.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#5 Post by rxl » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:51 pm

The company considers "Classic" -8 and the Q to be separate types. This makes sense since having just recently completed the Q course and 100 hours on type after 10,000 hours on the "Classic" prior to 15 years on the RJ they are not even remotely a "common" type. The only thing common about the 2 aircraft is the 60's era technology caution and warning light panel and the fake condition levers retained by the Q as a marketing ploy to sell airlines on some reduced training cost BS.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#6 Post by mbav8r » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:17 pm

I remember reading a memo or some communication a while back that said the freeze does not apply for bidding between the Q and Classic, could have been temporary but I can't find any reference to it now, so who knows. If you're current on either, it's only a conversion course not a full initial, don't even need to do a ppc if you're not due.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#7 Post by iamnomaverick » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:21 am

Magnetron wrote:
mbav8r wrote:also my understanding is you can bid from the classic to the Q because it is not a full course, just a conversion course.
So if you really want off the classic, my advice would be bid the Q at any base
That has been my experience. However I have not seen it once. The only time I have seen someone go from classic dash FO to Q400 FO is during a reduction. Even captains that have bid classic dash thinking they could go Q400 captain since it is not a full course I haven't seen one be successful. So dont hold your breath on that either.

Just my observation.
That has been my experience. Unless there is a reduction in your base on any type (in which case you can take advantage of a "junior reduction" to a different type in a different base) it is not likely to happen. The reason I say "likely" is because I know a couple of people it worked for but they were either on reduction or due the type that can get them to their base wasn't available on their initial ground school... Let's say you were forced onto the Q in YYC on your initial ground school but you live in YVR (before they got the Qs there) and you are trying to get home they will switch you to the classic if your seniority can hold a vacancy there.

I think we will see less and less of that now as the type are distributed between all bases other than the RJ in YYZ.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#8 Post by skypirate88 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:41 pm

I've been on holidays, any theories about how this bid may unfold? Will we still see spots going quite junior or will the more senior folks start bidding the left seat again?
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#9 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:55 pm

Theories?

I think it's hard to say as I think there will be a bit of shuffling going on for example YVR based Captains moving back to YYC, causing more upgrades in YVR and perhaps YYZ reduced Captains who were forced to YUL maybe finally make the jump out west. Personally I think we will see awards go under one year at all bases except YYZ. I think the Q400s will be the most Jr. upgrade in the system this time around. The mystery is the RJ out west...

In the May bid, the Q400 in YVR went at one year and in YUL the RJ at one year and -8 at six months... expect more of the same.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#10 Post by Kapitanov » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:59 pm

Talking about more senior folks, there are probably now quite a few college grads with at least 2 years of seniority who got their ATPLs recently. A good part of the upgrades will go to these guys in my opinion.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#11 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:16 pm

Kapitanov wrote:Talking about more senior folks, there are probably now quite a few college grads with at least 2 years of seniority who got their ATPLs recently. A good part of the upgrades will go to these guys in my opinion.
You have a good point. When I was in initial training last fall, there were a number of guys who were moving from the Q onto the RJ who all had around 1000 hours. They should all be close to their ATPLs now or have them already. And I'm sure there are many more... What will make the difference though is if these guys are willing to bid a machine they have not flown.

Personally I'd like to stay on the RJ, however I bid the Q as well since the Captain pay is based on YOS as a Captain now. I have zero expectation that it will happen this bid, however stranger things have happened and if there's one thing that I have been told by a number of Sr. Captains is "keep your standing bid current regardless of what you think might happen." So I have.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#12 Post by skypirate88 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:35 pm

To add to that big of wisdom Black_Tusk, it is important to bid what you want, not necessarily what you think you can hold. I've known folks who didn't bid for a seat just because they didn't think it would get to them.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#13 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:40 pm

skypirate88 wrote:To add to that big of wisdom Black_Tusk, it is important to bid what you want, not necessarily what you think you can hold. I've known folks who didn't bid for a seat just because they didn't think it would get to them.
Yes, I forgot to add that. But my bid has everything in it that I want, even though I know I probably won't hold it for a while but you never know.

It's kinda the same as the saying "Apply for the jobs you want not the jobs you think you'll get."
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#14 Post by HansDietrich » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:18 am

mbav8r wrote:So if you really want off the classic, my advice would be bid the Q at any base, commute and bid back to your preferred base as a standing bid or bid left seat any base and commute until you can hold your base, but based on some of your other posts, if you're struggling to pay your bills now, commuting is going to cost about 500 a month.
Thank you for that advice! I think that's what I'll do. I knew exactly what type of pay I would be getting at Jazz and as a family we can easily make it work. That's not an issue. The issue I mentioned was more about being able to afford a home in Toronto, with the current pay. Mind you, that applies to most Canadians, not just pilots working at Jazz.

For the most part, I did my homework before joining Jazz, but one thing that caught me off guard is the poor schedule and the fact you can't bid off an aircraft for 4 years. I was under the impression that:

1. You may not be able to get Christmas off, but I was shocked to see that getting a weekend off was almost impossible (I worked every weekend since I started flying at this company. I haven't had ONE weekend off. (Either worked Sat or Sun). I'll work 3 weekends a month... but give me one off for Christ's sake. Oh well...

2. I didn't expect the layovers to be crap and that's partly because of the aircraft. Another note, although now I'm just being a little childish, I would have liked to see a bit more "social life" out of crews. For the most part, we go to the hotel and say "See ya tomorrow"... :) Now you have 18 hours in Wabush to walk the avenue. Of course, this is nothing really worth mentioning and probably I should not have said it, yet I did.

So to stop beating this horse to death, I wonder if we can suggest to our union or someone at Jazz some "proposed" changes. I think this 4 year freeze on equipment, especially when you DID NOT CHOOSE IT, is outrageous. Simply put, guys like me (not that I'm special) are seriously thinking about leaving Jazz. I know a few guys that left, either back to the corporate world or moved to Air Transat or Sunwing. The thing is, as far as I'm concerned, Air Canada is not even an option for me. I'm not hoping to get it and I didn't come to Jazz to join Air Canada. I came to join Jazz. So, that "carrot" is not even in the equation for me.
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Last edited by HansDietrich on Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#15 Post by mbav8r » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:45 am

Hans, I hear you, when I joined it was a two year freeze which for me was a lifetime on the classic, have you considered joining the focus group to tell them that. I hope you get the Q on this bid, as for socializing on layovers, it varies, you'll probably find more of the younger crews wanting to at least go out for supper, the older ones(myself) will likely "slam click". I still go out for a beer and dinner more often than not but sometimes I just want to veg and order to the room.
Another suggestion for the focus group, if Jazz were to implement a port type base system like WJ used to have, that might spur some pilots into joining, just wanted to throw that out there.
Good luck, and it gets better with seniority, you would move up the list faster out West, unfortunately YYZ has pretty senior pilots off the RJ who didn't want to move or commute, so keep an eye on the list and consider commuting for a better schedul, plenty have done it. Guys have commuted for the left seat and came back when they could hold a better schedule, so you do have choices, hopefully you can make it work for you. PM me if you have any questions about commuting or whatever.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#16 Post by Black_Tusk » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:41 am

HansDietrich wrote: 1. You may not be able to get Christmas off, but I was shocked to see that getting a weekend off was almost impossible (I worked every weekend since I started flying at this company. I haven't had ONE weekend off. (Either worked Sat or Sun). I'll work 3 weekends a month... but give me one off for Christ's sake. Oh well...

2. I didn't expect the layovers to be crap and that's partly because of the aircraft. Another note, although now I'm just being a little childish, I would have liked to see a bit more "social life" out of crews. For the most part, we go to the hotel and say "See ya tomorrow"... :) Now you have 18 hours in Wabush to walk the avenue. Of course, this is nothing really worth mentioning and probably I should not have said it, yet I did.
In response to #1, your experience seems to be a lot like friends of mine out east. The thing is, it also really varies depending on base and type. For example (I am not bragging) I can count on one hand the amount of weekends I've had to work since Spring out in YVR. There might have been one or two pairings end on a Saturday morning but I can't remember. I have the most weekends in one month coming up in Sept at 3, and that was due to the days off I bid. I have also had every long weekend aside from BC day off. So type and base really matter, and part of that is senority. I've been very lucky to move up the list very quickly out west, and like mbav8r said, there are a lot of very Sr. pilots in YYZ who were reduced. It's exactly what happened to YVR a few years ago when the jet was pulled.

#2.. I feel ya. I am always walking around and eating alone. Some of the older guys enjoy a beer and then head up, but on those long daytime layovers no one ever wants to do anything like go to the Midway or San Diego Zoo... so I go alone. Also, on the RJ we have FA's change out almost every leg and rarely do layovers with them so I am still having a hard time learning everyone's name because I only fly with a FA one or two legs a month at most.

It should get better as more guys retire. Since you say you want to stick it out at Jazz I really suggest looking into joining the union in some sort of role. We need more guys/gals who are planning to be here for a while working for the newer group (new contract) pilots. Not everyone wants to, or will realistically got to AC... myself included.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#17 Post by Air.Field » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:40 pm

mbav8r wrote: Another suggestion for the focus group, if Jazz were to implement a port type base system like WJ used to have, that might spur some pilots into joining, just wanted to throw that out there.
That is a great idea that would entice many. Porters new YQT base will likely prove a smart move on their part. I really think reopening YHZ base would make sense, not just for those who want to live there, but also for IROPS, as right now a DH from YYZ or YUL kinda limits things a bit.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#18 Post by NorthernWolf » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:46 am

The results of the equipment bid has been delayed to next week for a matter recalculation.. Now, I'm a bit confuse on where this whole thing is trending. In one hand, the company is telling us that we will hire 400 pilots next year. On the other hand, the hiring at AC from the FPML is quite low right now from what we ear. How can we hire that much pilots in 2018 if there is no flow in the river? Is there something I'm missing here?

Cheers
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#19 Post by speedah » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:06 pm

YYZ E190 Base

Duh
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#20 Post by HansDietrich » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:16 pm

NorthernWolf wrote:The results of the equipment bid has been delayed to next week for a matter recalculation.. Now, I'm a bit confuse on where this whole thing is trending. In one hand, the company is telling us that we will hire 400 pilots next year. On the other hand, the hiring at AC from the FPML is quite low right now from what we ear. How can we hire that much pilots in 2018 if there is no flow in the river? Is there something I'm missing here?

Cheers
From the sounds of it, AC will start hiring again...
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#21 Post by skypirate88 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:33 pm

The award is out. Congrats to all the new captains! Haven't referenced date of hires but at first glance the junior upgrades seem to continue.
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#22 Post by Monorail Conductor » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:51 pm

At a glance it looks like 9 to 10 months for Q400/classic YUL capt.

Congrats to all the new captains!
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#23 Post by KenoraPilot » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:42 pm

Congrats all! The most junior RJ captain in YVR is at 1.5yrs employment as of today so under 2yrs to RJ captain in YVR :prayer:
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#24 Post by dhc# » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:05 pm

How many pilots does Jazz plan on hiring in 2018 ? Saw some posts saying 400 is that close or realistic going forward ?
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Re: Jazz Aug 31 Equipment BID

#25 Post by skypirate88 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:29 pm

dhc# wrote:How many pilots does Jazz plan on hiring in 2018 ? Saw some posts saying 400 is that close or realistic going forward ?
We've been told 300-400 next year. Suppose it will depend on how many do over from PML 2.0
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