Pathetic Pearson Airport

[cossack]

That is a problem area that needs to be looked at. I also think departure/arrival slot times have to be addressed. When you have C208's arriving at the maximum peak arrival time mixed in with 777's it seems to be poor management by GTAA. Same with 50 Depatures at 9am. Maybe have someone depart at 8:40 ? I think scheduling plays a big part. Just look at LHR with departure slot times.

A voice of reason! You're not a pilot are you?

[HansDietrich]

I think the first thing YYZ needs to address is the shortage of controllers. The "FLOW" delays into Toronto are insane!

Get real!
The worst arrival flow delays into YYZ are not, for the most part, due to staffing. They are due to weather or losing a runway. Remember that from the Spring?
I've been on many shifts when we have been short and I doubt anyone noticed any delays above the normal line up caused by bad scheduling. If the airlines schedule 32 departures to push back at 9pm, it doesn't matter how many staff are working, there just isn't a way to get them airborne without a line up and still accommodate 56 arrivals an hour which don't always come evenly spaced out.
When short, we may not use 06R/24L, but we still move in excess of 100 flights an hour without any delay program. At times there's going to be bunching and line ups but that's just what it is.
Do you bitch and whine about other comparable airports who run 2-3 hour delays 3 or 4 times a week? At YYZ this is the exception, not the rule.

Well then, shit! I must've stepped on the wrong toe. Well, that's what they tell us. It's "shortage of controllers"... What do I know? I'm an idiot Dash driver, that can't tell the difference between Lane 5 and 6. Honestly, I don't know why we have to wait 5 hours in freakin' Sudbury for a slot time into YYZ

[cossack]

Well then, shit! I must've stepped on the wrong toe. Well, that's what they tell us. It's "shortage of controllers"... What do I know? I'm an idiot Dash driver, that can't tell the difference between Lane 5 and 6. Honestly, I don't know why we have to wait 5 hours in freakin' Sudbury for a slot time into YYZ

You're not stepping on any toes, you're just wrong! If that's what you are being told, then you are being lied to. Ask for the Shift Manager's phone number and get the real reason.
I explained this morning why those closer in were ground stopped for so long on Monday and it wasn't due to staffing. If the arrival rate was say 32/hour and there are already more aircraft in the air than that due to arrive in any particular hour, why let more get airborne? If we did that and you held for an hour, then diverted, you'd be asking why there were too many aircraft that the airport couldn't accept and you'd be right.

[pelmet]

I think scheduling plays a big part. Just look at LHR with departure slot times.

SOBT, TOBT, TSAT, CTOT. Heathrow can have them all(or none). But, with no CTOT, that doesn't meant that there won't be a 20 minute wait in line for takeoff. Or, according to the captain on the PA when we are #1 at the runway threshold, on a flight to the mainland, we have a delay due to Eurocontrol. Maybe it would be worse without the system though.

Maybe YYZ should try Time Based Separation.

[HansDietrich]

Well then, shit! I must've stepped on the wrong toe. Well, that's what they tell us. It's "shortage of controllers"... What do I know? I'm an idiot Dash driver, that can't tell the difference between Lane 5 and 6. Honestly, I don't know why we have to wait 5 hours in freakin' Sudbury for a slot time into YYZ

You're not stepping on any toes, you're just wrong! If that's what you are being told, then you are being lied to. Ask for the Shift Manager's phone number and get the real reason.
I explained this morning why those closer in were ground stopped for so long on Monday and it wasn't due to staffing. If the arrival rate was say 32/hour and there are already more aircraft in the air than that due to arrive in any particular hour, why let more get airborne? If we did that and you held for an hour, then diverted, you'd be asking why there were too many aircraft that the airport couldn't accept and you'd be right.

I'm not going to argue this. It's what we've always been told "Nav Canada doesn't have enough controllers to keep Pearson going. Sure, on a nice day, when there are no issues, they can handle all the traffic, but throw in weather and the whole system is screwed." This is honestly what we've been told and I'm guilty of repeating this to people, including the public (of course, not at work. At work, I don't speak to anyone from the public.) Well, I guess I should find out the real reason. So why is it that it's so backed up? Pearson is not exactly LHR or FRA.

[cossack]

I'm not going to argue this. It's what we've always been told "Nav Canada doesn't have enough controllers to keep Pearson going. Sure, on a nice day, when there are no issues, they can handle all the traffic, but throw in weather and the whole system is screwed." This is honestly what we've been told and I'm guilty of repeating this to people, including the public (of course, not at work. At work, I don't speak to anyone from the public.) Well, I guess I should find out the real reason. So why is it that it's so backed up? Pearson is not exactly LHR or FRA.

pelmet alludes to some of the reasons above. Over the years YYZ has become busier and its no longer possible to just let it flow naturally for both safety and economic reasons. If you want to fly to LHR or FRA chances are you will be flowed. The flow delay may not be much of a delay from your scheduled time, because the number of aircraft allowed to be scheduled within a 15 minute window is restricted. If your company wants to schedule 32 departures in 15 minutes from YYZ, it doesn't matter how many controllers there are, there's just no way they're all going to depart with no delay.
YYZ is short of controllers but on 99% of days we are short, you may notice that 06R/24L isn't used, but that is all. The line ups, even when it is being used, are at 05/23 because of the flow and balance of traffic has caused a temporary over-demand on that side.
Rather than just believing what you are told by some dispatcher, get the real reason. Call the shift manager.

[atphat]

I fly into the busiest airports in NA. Pearson gets a bad rap in my opinion. Of course there are days where I would get into a lot of trouble if I had a stuck mic talking about Pearson. But overall I think they do a pretty good job.

[HansDietrich]

I'm not going to argue this. It's what we've always been told "Nav Canada doesn't have enough controllers to keep Pearson going. Sure, on a nice day, when there are no issues, they can handle all the traffic, but throw in weather and the whole system is screwed." This is honestly what we've been told and I'm guilty of repeating this to people, including the public (of course, not at work. At work, I don't speak to anyone from the public.) Well, I guess I should find out the real reason. So why is it that it's so backed up? Pearson is not exactly LHR or FRA.

pelmet alludes to some of the reasons above. Over the years YYZ has become busier and its no longer possible to just let it flow naturally for both safety and economic reasons. If you want to fly to LHR or FRA chances are you will be flowed. The flow delay may not be much of a delay from your scheduled time, because the number of aircraft allowed to be scheduled within a 15 minute window is restricted. If your company wants to schedule 32 departures in 15 minutes from YYZ, it doesn't matter how many controllers there are, there's just no way they're all going to depart with no delay.
YYZ is short of controllers but on 99% of days we are short, you may notice that 06R/24L isn't used, but that is all. The line ups, even when it is being used, are at 05/23 because of the flow and balance of traffic has caused a temporary over-demand on that side.
Rather than just believing what you are told by some dispatcher, get the real reason. Call the shift manager.

Thanks for that thorough explanation. I much appreciate it. Of course I'm not going to call the shift manager. What am I going to say? "Hi, this is Hans, the hat wearing, Dash 8 CLASSIC F/O and I'm wondering why I have to wait in North Bay 5 hours for the flow"

I guess this "Super Hub" mentality is not exactly the best one, when things go wrong (weather, runway construction, etc)

Cheers

Hans

[cossack]

Maybe YYZ should try Time Based Separation.

TBS has its place and that is on a dedicated arrival runway, which is how LHR operates.
For much of the time YYZ operates its runways in mixed mode so TBS is useless. The arrival gap is usually 4 miles at touchdown (sometimes more, sometimes less) and we try to get a departure out.
In a strong headwind this can and is reduced. With a tailwind aloft (common when landing 05/06L&R) spacing mileage is increased to allow a departure to get out. We're still providing the same time gap, but with a variation of the mileage. TBS without the fancy computers, just using controller skill and experience. Sometimes there just isn't enough space and we throw the hole away.
TBS could work well on the 33s. Strong headwind and landing only. Ideally we'd have another high speed exit before F2 for the DH8s and B190s. Crossing the fence grounding 90kts with a B77W right behind you dragging it in at 140 is a problem. Many of the overshoots are caused by compression of dissimilar types.
In mixed mode, the majority of overshoots are caused by poor aircraft performance: slow to exit and/or slow to roll. I gave a take off clearance to traffic already lined up last week and the arrival had flown 1.5 miles before there was any forward motion from the departure. That's unacceptable.

[pelmet]

Going to be using the same long walkway again soon. I wonder if it will work tonight. Any bets?

Already at the airport early. One out of eight walkways not working so far.

Use the restroom at a remote corner of the airport. Three toilet stalls in this one compared to the busy areas with all the AC passengers where they were smart enough to design the washrooms with only two stalls and they are usually full. Went to wash my hands, first two soap dispensers empty. Then the first attempt to get towels had me moving the lever up and down with no result.

Talk about not getting what you pay for.

[Rudy]

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

[DonutHole]

Politics 101

Influence isn't the same as power. It isn't even the same as a coalition government. While it is mandatory for the right wing to blame the left for everything, blaming the Greens and NDP for Pearson is laughable.

Influence is the same as power if you use it to leverage the majority into the minority position. Do you think before you comment?

[dashx]

Wow.......and I thought it was hard enough just trying to get to the airport (you know construction on airport rd and hwy 427....non stop traffiic on hwy 401 409 410 and 427). Walking is the last thing I worry about in the terminals.

When you bitch dont forget the tunnel to the T3 extension .......

[DrSpaceman]

Both escalators not working to get down to customs yesterday at T3... saw an old man almost fall all the way down.

Honestly if I don’t see around 50% of equipment broken it’s a good day. Makes you wonder where all those airport fees go to.

[Rockie]

Politics 101

Influence isn't the same as power. It isn't even the same as a coalition government. While it is mandatory for the right wing to blame the left for everything, blaming the Greens and NDP for Pearson is laughable.

Influence is the same as power if you use it to leverage the majority into the minority position. Do you think before you comment?

Influence is not absolute - power is.
People with influence don't make the decisions - people with power do.

In reference to this thread it's impossible to see how the NDP or Green's have ever had any "influence" of any kind, on any subject, in any area relating to Pearson airport and are therefore to blame for it as the person I was responding to seems to think. You're welcome to prove me wrong.

Do you think before you comment?

[pelmet]

Walking is the last thing I worry about in the terminals.

Same with most of us...but most of us realize that there are a lot of sick and elderly people that travel. They do worry about this kind of thing.

[HansDietrich]

Quick question:

Considering all the delays at YYZ, why would they close a runway for some "marathon" fund raiser? (Not to bash charity, but that can be done elsewhere in Toronto). How does that impact operations?

[Diomedea]

Quick question:

Considering all the delays at YYZ, why would they close a runway for some "marathon" fund raiser? (Not to bash charity, but that can be done elsewhere in Toronto). How does that impact operations?

It's an annual event (5k run/walk, not a marathon), and it's part of Pearson's public outreach activities. Lots of families attend, and they get to look at aircraft static displays, fire equipment, birds of prey that chase away wildlife, etc.

[HansDietrich]

Quick question:

Considering all the delays at YYZ, why would they close a runway for some "marathon" fund raiser? (Not to bash charity, but that can be done elsewhere in Toronto). How does that impact operations?

It's an annual event (5k run/walk, not a marathon), and it's part of Pearson's public outreach activities. Lots of families attend, and they get to look at aircraft static displays, fire equipment, birds of prey that chase away wildlife, etc.

Yes, I know that. I was asking about impact on operations / delays, etc.

[cossack]

Its held on a Saturday and 06R/24L is never part of a normal operation on a Saturday as historically there aren't the traffic numbers to require its use as part of a 3 runway configuration.
Dual runway, mixed mode is sufficient at all times except for the 35 departure push at 21:00, then there may be line ups. Having the third runway for that brief time would only be marginally beneficial and not worth adding extra staff to the whole shift for.

[flyinhigh]

The other day an Encore plane reported that they hit the blast of B-777 to which the controller responded, "get used to it, its going to be the new norm".

Personally, I am happy with this as Canada's spacing requirements I feel are way to much. With that, what exactly can we expect for spacing now? 4nm, 3 nm.

Also on the 24 operation. In my past experience, the same controllers ran the arrivals and landings for both 24's, meaning there was no extra staff required. I did mean more traffic movements, however in the past 6 months I have been back in YYZ, I have yet to use the south side. Why is this?

[Married a Canadian]

The other day an Encore plane reported that they hit the blast of B-777 to which the controller responded, "get used to it, its going to be the new norm".

Personally, I am happy with this as Canada's spacing requirements I feel are way to much. With that, what exactly can we expect for spacing now? 4nm, 3 nm.

Wake separation on arrival..Q400 behind a B777 would be 5 miles (Medium behind a heavy). The "new norm" is that there will be a LOT more heavies into YYZ, already we are seeing more due to the Rouge 767s, extra European flights (Air Portugal), and also all the extra flights to the far East/Dubai India (China Eastern, Southern, Hainan, Cathay, EVA, Philippine and the AC 787s).
We won't mess with wake spacing on arrival unless an aircraft will accept a visual following a heavy.
Out with wake separation, we can run 2.5 to 3 miles when jamming one runway.

Also on the 24 operation. In my past experience, the same controllers ran the arrivals and landings for both 24's, meaning there was no extra staff required. I did mean more traffic movements, however in the past 6 months I have been back in YYZ, I have yet to use the south side. Why is this?

Not sure what you mean by this, do you mean you haven't landed on 24L/06R? Or the south side in general ie 24R/06L.
If it is the first one, it just depends when we are able to do the triple operation, and Cossack has explained on numerous threads when this is possible and what is required.
If it is the second one (not being on 24R/06L), probably more to do with which direction you have come from when landing and whatever time of day it has been. We dual more often than not so it must have been when you are coming from the north in a dual, or in over IMEBA..where the default runway setting will be 23/05 (depending on balance).

I give props to the controllers that were working because they were slammed all day and did there best, but when you have cancelled flight after cancellled flight after one storm line passes, all because of staffing. Nav Canada should be embarrassed and the GTAA pissed that this world class hub is a joke.

Have to come back to this comment, because the lack of understanding from some of the flying community when weather goes through is unreal. I am no GTAA shrill, and they make a LOT of problems for themselves, but to b*** and complain about flow delays when there is OBVIOUS weather around is ignorant and has nothing to do with either NAV Canada or the GTAA.
Ask yourself next time that you want that left/right turn due to CBs when you are within 25 miles of Canada's busiest airport WHERE that puts you in the sky in relation to other traffic. When EVERY departure wants a turn for weather or the arrivals won't go past 15 mile final due to storms, or you don't want to make the turn at MAROD/VERKO due to build ups..etc....what options does that leave for ATC?
It is mentioned that the weather has "cleared" but we tend to find on the radar side of things that "cleared" still means pilots don't want to fly into build ups or the remnants of the storms and if we don't have "regular" arrival/departure routes...we can't run a regular operation. Also bear in mind that the enroute is having to do a LOT of clean up also after a line goes through, and they are probably still impacted by what has gone on before.
Flow happens on bad weather days.......flights get cancelled because crews end up out of position and hours. I understand that...but it is not due to ATC staffing nor any poor planning on the GTAAs part. Pretty sure the airlines and the GTAA WANT to run as high a rate as possible (believe me the tower and terminal are more than aware of this), but I am not going to apologise on NAV Canada's behalf for saying I don't want a 50 plus arrival rate before/during and after a thunderstorm.

I'm not going to argue this. It's what we've always been told "Nav Canada doesn't have enough controllers to keep Pearson going. Sure, on a nice day, when there are no issues, they can handle all the traffic, but throw in weather and the whole system is screwed

Throw in weather anywhere and the system is screwed. Unless you want to fly through a CB or thunderstorm that isn't going to change. The US airports just cancel flights..so we are already one up on them in weather. I get it is frustrating sitting on the ground...it costs your company time and money.....but blaming the GTAA and Nav Canada for these events is just plain wrong.
I know where NAV Canada can do better, and have been honest on ATC threads where there are times we have to hold our hands up. Delays during weather/construction/airshow...are not a stick to beat either the GTAA or Nav Canada with...we do a pretty good job in comparison to other airports that run the same traffic as us.

[rookiepilot]

Airport is getting busier. Apart from constantly broken escalators, what I notice are washrooms that smell like an outhouse on a bad day. Many airports have people cleaning constantly. Why at Pearson is it every few hours (if that). No wonder Pearson is known as a toilet. Literally.

#2 is staffing (Catsa). Come in the other night, try to exit the international baggage area with about 500 other people at T1. 2, count em 2, Catsa folks checking everyone through. Who knows how many others standing around gabbing.

Massive, slow line. Unacceptable. I'm a busy guy and so are many other people. I hate, just hate, my time disrespected by sheer staff laziness. Do your job!

Get far better service in any number of developing countries.

[7ECA]

Massive, slow line. Unacceptable. I'm a busy guy and so are many other people. I hate, just hate, my time disrespected by sheer staff laziness. Do your job!

Get far better service in any number of developing countries.

Maybe we can have a special express line for people who are ever so pleasant, and constantly in a rush - you know the most important people, not just all the peons like the rest of us. Would that work best for you, Mr. Important?

[rookiepilot]

Massive, slow line. Unacceptable. I'm a busy guy and so are many other people. I hate, just hate, my time disrespected by sheer staff laziness. Do your job!

Get far better service in any number of developing countries.

Maybe we can have a special express line for people who are ever so pleasant, and constantly in a rush - you know the most important people, not just all the peons like the rest of us. Would that work best for you, Mr. Important?

Why not simply have 5,6, 10 staff when there are 3 widebodies full of people trying to get cleared?

Yeah my time is valuable. Not apologizing to state it.