Pathetic Pearson Airport

[pelmet]

Do we even need to mention the absolute abortion that is the new terminal at YYC? Aside from
Walkways being constantly broken, the "swing gates" often aren't configured properly, leaving people trapped in the hamster maze of corridors, long walks through bland sterile hallways that make an asylum look like a fun place to be. Serious lack of windows or interior lighting.


The stupid "dink link" shuttle sharing space with pedestrians who I see almost get hit on a weekly basis (nevermind that it only runs through half the airport.)

Just got to YYC airport the other day for the first time in quite a while. I was quite impressed by the 'Dink Link'. Seems like a really good, relatively low cost idea. Although, I am not sure how efficient it is at busy times. I enjoyed my rides to both ends of the system.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Do we even need to mention the absolute abortion that is the new terminal at YYC? Aside from
Walkways being constantly broken, the "swing gates" often aren't configured properly, leaving people trapped in the hamster maze of corridors, long walks through bland sterile hallways that make an asylum look like a fun place to be. Serious lack of windows or interior lighting.


The stupid "dink link" shuttle sharing space with pedestrians who I see almost get hit on a weekly basis (nevermind that it only runs through half the airport.)

Just got to YYC airport the other day for the first time in quite a while. I was quite impressed by the 'Dink Link'. Seems like a really good, relatively low cost idea. Although, I am not sure how efficient it is at busy times. I enjoyed my rides to both ends of the system.

Did you also know each dink link tram cart cost over $200,000 to design and build?? There was a Herald article on the debacle a couple years ago when the contract was awarded.

[pelmet]

Do we even need to mention the absolute abortion that is the new terminal at YYC? Aside from
Walkways being constantly broken, the "swing gates" often aren't configured properly, leaving people trapped in the hamster maze of corridors, long walks through bland sterile hallways that make an asylum look like a fun place to be. Serious lack of windows or interior lighting.


The stupid "dink link" shuttle sharing space with pedestrians who I see almost get hit on a weekly basis (nevermind that it only runs through half the airport.)

Just got to YYC airport the other day for the first time in quite a while. I was quite impressed by the 'Dink Link'. Seems like a really good, relatively low cost idea. Although, I am not sure how efficient it is at busy times. I enjoyed my rides to both ends of the system.

Did you also know each dink link tram cart cost over $200,000 to design and build?? There was a Herald article on the debacle a couple years ago when the contract was awarded.

Nope. Had never heard of it until this thread. Things are not always as they seem.

[fish4life]

nvm the labour cost of the drivers every day forever

[flyinhigh]

My ultimate piss off came on Monday when someone forgot to tell Nav Canada that airlines don't shut down on holidays. I mean come on, single takeoff and land runways!!!! When we lined up for 23 we had 11 behind us and building. Then add on the storm system that came through and boom Ground Stop.

I give props to the controllers that were working because they were slammed all day and did there best, but when you have cancelled flight after cancellled flight after one storm line passes, all because of staffing. Nav Canada should be embarrassed and the GTAA pissed that this world class hub is a joke.

[cossack]

I wasn't working Monday (I declined the offer) but you only have a small part of the picture. You don't say what time of day this was but I would guess mid afternoon.
Monday (and Saturday and Sunday) were airshow days. During the airshow it is normal to land on one runway and depart another to allow "on time" departures and speedy recovery for fuel constrained show traffic. Traffic will have been (hopefully) flowed back to a rate to allow this.
Usually after the Snowbirds depart for the show, the taps are opened and we're expected to handle normal traffic and get the Snowbirds back in. What fun that is!
From my comfy garden chair with a cold beverage in hand I watched the approach of the storm and told my wife that I was glad I was at home as it was about to get ugly.
Once departures start deviating due to weather it is normal to depart everyone from the same runway, it happens whenever there are deviations that preclude parallel departures, even when staffing is not an issue. It keeps the radio chatter lower on departure frequency so they can handle the numerous requests for weather avoidance. Its called safety.
Arrivals will be held and where possible put on one runway as well. There may be so many that some offloading onto the departure runway is permitted to avoid diversions. What does this do to the departure line? It gets long in a hurry. Its not because we're under-staffed its because we're doing the best we can to accommodate as many flights as we can. its called safety.
The ground stop was a lengthy one but only affected Tier 2 airports: eastern seaboard, YUL/YOW and those within an hour or so radius. Flights from outside that area kept coming and were landed as quickly as possible in the changing conditions brought about by the frontal passage. Because there was no room in the arrival rate for traffic within the Tier 2 zone, the ground stop stayed on for several hours. Its was for safety.
It had nothing to do with staffing and everything to do with safety.

[Back2Final]

My ultimate piss off came on Monday when someone forgot to tell Nav Canada that airlines don't shut down on holidays. I mean come on, single takeoff and land runways!!!! When we lined up for 23 we had 11 behind us and building. Then add on the storm system that came through and boom Ground Stop.

I give props to the controllers that were working because they were slammed all day and did there best, but when you have cancelled flight after cancellled flight after one storm line passes, all because of staffing. Nav Canada should be embarrassed and the GTAA pissed that this world class hub is a joke.

I can't be as informative as cossack, but you sound as your sitting in seat 25D. Get a bit more of the picture before you start blaming NC for your woes. When your dual departing and the south departure wants a north turn and the north departure wants a south tun it's time to think about safety. We get guys going straight ahead saying it's light turbulence, next guy has his radar turned up to max gain and is looking for a turn. We have to dumb it down at that point, get everyone in the same starting point. Last thing we need, and airline management push it to the max, is having a sky full of planes when the shit hits the fan. We get forced into situations of trying to get one more plane in ahead of the storm, i.e. Air France in YYZ. I know it's more of the airline management then pilots with the pressure to move tin, better to be on the ground wishing you were flying then the other way around

[HansDietrich]

I think the first thing YYZ needs to address is the shortage of controllers. The "FLOW" delays into Toronto are insane!

[Back2Final]

That is a problem area that needs to be looked at. I also think departure/arrival slot times have to be addressed. When you have C208's arriving at the maximum peak arrival time mixed in with 777's it seems to be poor management by GTAA. Same with 50 Depatures at 9am. Maybe have someone depart at 8:40 ? I think scheduling plays a big part. Just look at LHR with departure slot times.

[cossack]

I think the first thing YYZ needs to address is the shortage of controllers. The "FLOW" delays into Toronto are insane!

Get real!
The worst arrival flow delays into YYZ are not, for the most part, due to staffing. They are due to weather or losing a runway. Remember that from the Spring?
I've been on many shifts when we have been short and I doubt anyone noticed any delays above the normal line up caused by bad scheduling. If the airlines schedule 32 departures to push back at 9pm, it doesn't matter how many staff are working, there just isn't a way to get them airborne without a line up and still accommodate 56 arrivals an hour which don't always come evenly spaced out.
When short, we may not use 06R/24L, but we still move in excess of 100 flights an hour without any delay program. At times there's going to be bunching and line ups but that's just what it is.
Do you bitch and whine about other comparable airports who run 2-3 hour delays 3 or 4 times a week? At YYZ this is the exception, not the rule.

[cossack]

That is a problem area that needs to be looked at. I also think departure/arrival slot times have to be addressed. When you have C208's arriving at the maximum peak arrival time mixed in with 777's it seems to be poor management by GTAA. Same with 50 Depatures at 9am. Maybe have someone depart at 8:40 ? I think scheduling plays a big part. Just look at LHR with departure slot times.

A voice of reason! You're not a pilot are you?

[HansDietrich]

I think the first thing YYZ needs to address is the shortage of controllers. The "FLOW" delays into Toronto are insane!

Get real!
The worst arrival flow delays into YYZ are not, for the most part, due to staffing. They are due to weather or losing a runway. Remember that from the Spring?
I've been on many shifts when we have been short and I doubt anyone noticed any delays above the normal line up caused by bad scheduling. If the airlines schedule 32 departures to push back at 9pm, it doesn't matter how many staff are working, there just isn't a way to get them airborne without a line up and still accommodate 56 arrivals an hour which don't always come evenly spaced out.
When short, we may not use 06R/24L, but we still move in excess of 100 flights an hour without any delay program. At times there's going to be bunching and line ups but that's just what it is.
Do you bitch and whine about other comparable airports who run 2-3 hour delays 3 or 4 times a week? At YYZ this is the exception, not the rule.

Well then, shit! I must've stepped on the wrong toe. Well, that's what they tell us. It's "shortage of controllers"... What do I know? I'm an idiot Dash driver, that can't tell the difference between Lane 5 and 6. Honestly, I don't know why we have to wait 5 hours in freakin' Sudbury for a slot time into YYZ

[cossack]

Well then, shit! I must've stepped on the wrong toe. Well, that's what they tell us. It's "shortage of controllers"... What do I know? I'm an idiot Dash driver, that can't tell the difference between Lane 5 and 6. Honestly, I don't know why we have to wait 5 hours in freakin' Sudbury for a slot time into YYZ

You're not stepping on any toes, you're just wrong! If that's what you are being told, then you are being lied to. Ask for the Shift Manager's phone number and get the real reason.
I explained this morning why those closer in were ground stopped for so long on Monday and it wasn't due to staffing. If the arrival rate was say 32/hour and there are already more aircraft in the air than that due to arrive in any particular hour, why let more get airborne? If we did that and you held for an hour, then diverted, you'd be asking why there were too many aircraft that the airport couldn't accept and you'd be right.

[pelmet]

I think scheduling plays a big part. Just look at LHR with departure slot times.

SOBT, TOBT, TSAT, CTOT. Heathrow can have them all(or none). But, with no CTOT, that doesn't meant that there won't be a 20 minute wait in line for takeoff. Or, according to the captain on the PA when we are #1 at the runway threshold, on a flight to the mainland, we have a delay due to Eurocontrol. Maybe it would be worse without the system though.

Maybe YYZ should try Time Based Separation.

[HansDietrich]

Well then, shit! I must've stepped on the wrong toe. Well, that's what they tell us. It's "shortage of controllers"... What do I know? I'm an idiot Dash driver, that can't tell the difference between Lane 5 and 6. Honestly, I don't know why we have to wait 5 hours in freakin' Sudbury for a slot time into YYZ

You're not stepping on any toes, you're just wrong! If that's what you are being told, then you are being lied to. Ask for the Shift Manager's phone number and get the real reason.
I explained this morning why those closer in were ground stopped for so long on Monday and it wasn't due to staffing. If the arrival rate was say 32/hour and there are already more aircraft in the air than that due to arrive in any particular hour, why let more get airborne? If we did that and you held for an hour, then diverted, you'd be asking why there were too many aircraft that the airport couldn't accept and you'd be right.

I'm not going to argue this. It's what we've always been told "Nav Canada doesn't have enough controllers to keep Pearson going. Sure, on a nice day, when there are no issues, they can handle all the traffic, but throw in weather and the whole system is screwed." This is honestly what we've been told and I'm guilty of repeating this to people, including the public (of course, not at work. At work, I don't speak to anyone from the public.) Well, I guess I should find out the real reason. So why is it that it's so backed up? Pearson is not exactly LHR or FRA.

[cossack]

I'm not going to argue this. It's what we've always been told "Nav Canada doesn't have enough controllers to keep Pearson going. Sure, on a nice day, when there are no issues, they can handle all the traffic, but throw in weather and the whole system is screwed." This is honestly what we've been told and I'm guilty of repeating this to people, including the public (of course, not at work. At work, I don't speak to anyone from the public.) Well, I guess I should find out the real reason. So why is it that it's so backed up? Pearson is not exactly LHR or FRA.

pelmet alludes to some of the reasons above. Over the years YYZ has become busier and its no longer possible to just let it flow naturally for both safety and economic reasons. If you want to fly to LHR or FRA chances are you will be flowed. The flow delay may not be much of a delay from your scheduled time, because the number of aircraft allowed to be scheduled within a 15 minute window is restricted. If your company wants to schedule 32 departures in 15 minutes from YYZ, it doesn't matter how many controllers there are, there's just no way they're all going to depart with no delay.
YYZ is short of controllers but on 99% of days we are short, you may notice that 06R/24L isn't used, but that is all. The line ups, even when it is being used, are at 05/23 because of the flow and balance of traffic has caused a temporary over-demand on that side.
Rather than just believing what you are told by some dispatcher, get the real reason. Call the shift manager.

[atphat]

I fly into the busiest airports in NA. Pearson gets a bad rap in my opinion. Of course there are days where I would get into a lot of trouble if I had a stuck mic talking about Pearson. But overall I think they do a pretty good job.

[HansDietrich]

I'm not going to argue this. It's what we've always been told "Nav Canada doesn't have enough controllers to keep Pearson going. Sure, on a nice day, when there are no issues, they can handle all the traffic, but throw in weather and the whole system is screwed." This is honestly what we've been told and I'm guilty of repeating this to people, including the public (of course, not at work. At work, I don't speak to anyone from the public.) Well, I guess I should find out the real reason. So why is it that it's so backed up? Pearson is not exactly LHR or FRA.

pelmet alludes to some of the reasons above. Over the years YYZ has become busier and its no longer possible to just let it flow naturally for both safety and economic reasons. If you want to fly to LHR or FRA chances are you will be flowed. The flow delay may not be much of a delay from your scheduled time, because the number of aircraft allowed to be scheduled within a 15 minute window is restricted. If your company wants to schedule 32 departures in 15 minutes from YYZ, it doesn't matter how many controllers there are, there's just no way they're all going to depart with no delay.
YYZ is short of controllers but on 99% of days we are short, you may notice that 06R/24L isn't used, but that is all. The line ups, even when it is being used, are at 05/23 because of the flow and balance of traffic has caused a temporary over-demand on that side.
Rather than just believing what you are told by some dispatcher, get the real reason. Call the shift manager.

Thanks for that thorough explanation. I much appreciate it. Of course I'm not going to call the shift manager. What am I going to say? "Hi, this is Hans, the hat wearing, Dash 8 CLASSIC F/O and I'm wondering why I have to wait in North Bay 5 hours for the flow"

I guess this "Super Hub" mentality is not exactly the best one, when things go wrong (weather, runway construction, etc)

Cheers

Hans

[cossack]

Maybe YYZ should try Time Based Separation.

TBS has its place and that is on a dedicated arrival runway, which is how LHR operates.
For much of the time YYZ operates its runways in mixed mode so TBS is useless. The arrival gap is usually 4 miles at touchdown (sometimes more, sometimes less) and we try to get a departure out.
In a strong headwind this can and is reduced. With a tailwind aloft (common when landing 05/06L&R) spacing mileage is increased to allow a departure to get out. We're still providing the same time gap, but with a variation of the mileage. TBS without the fancy computers, just using controller skill and experience. Sometimes there just isn't enough space and we throw the hole away.
TBS could work well on the 33s. Strong headwind and landing only. Ideally we'd have another high speed exit before F2 for the DH8s and B190s. Crossing the fence grounding 90kts with a B77W right behind you dragging it in at 140 is a problem. Many of the overshoots are caused by compression of dissimilar types.
In mixed mode, the majority of overshoots are caused by poor aircraft performance: slow to exit and/or slow to roll. I gave a take off clearance to traffic already lined up last week and the arrival had flown 1.5 miles before there was any forward motion from the departure. That's unacceptable.

[pelmet]

Going to be using the same long walkway again soon. I wonder if it will work tonight. Any bets?

Already at the airport early. One out of eight walkways not working so far.

Use the restroom at a remote corner of the airport. Three toilet stalls in this one compared to the busy areas with all the AC passengers where they were smart enough to design the washrooms with only two stalls and they are usually full. Went to wash my hands, first two soap dispensers empty. Then the first attempt to get towels had me moving the lever up and down with no result.

Talk about not getting what you pay for.