The Bombardier VS Boeing thing

[lionheart27]

Just wanted to chime in on this topic and what people think.

Why is it so hard for us to compete in this market?
Boeing is doing so well locally and internationally this seems to be Bill Gates style of business.
Isn't this more about the competition between Embrarer and Bombardier as they make similar size market models?
I've read the articles on Trudeau, the Super Hornets and Boeing going to war like Tony Montana!
Embrarer doesn't seem to be sought after by Boeing regarding their stake in all this. Wasn't Embrarer backed this way?
I don't think Boeing cares if we buy super hornets or not so that's not the play here.
Canadian companies have saturated the market with the 737 series so why is Boeing complaining?
That leaves the only market to Canadian Bombardier the Q's. The lackluster sales on the CSeries is hurting the company.
We need international sales on the Cseries to compete with Embrarer.
Maybe more appealing cost effective contracts with partners in Europe and the UK is the answer?
Anyone......Buehler?
Please opinions only!

[goingnowherefast]

I think Boeing is more worried about a future "CS500", "CS700", etc. Going back to the Airbus A300, Boeing wasn't too concerned as it was some weird European twin-engine wide body plane. Clearly they should have been.

As for Boeing and Embrarer, is it possible to stretch a 195 to comfortably seat as many as a 737-800? I don't think the E195 offers much competition to even the smallest 737.

Bombardier should take it as a huge compliment to the CS series. Boeing is considerably more upset about the CS100/CS300 than they are about the Embrarer E-jets.

[sanjet]

You have to remember how much the defence contracts at Boeing are worth from US and other foreign governments. As much as we think it's just business, there is a lot of "push" in the background for Boeing to get these contracts, these defence contracts are huge and subsidize the rest of the company. I can assure you, most airliners sold at Boeing are at a loss or very close to break even, defence contracts are where the profit margins at.

Bomabardier simply don't have these high margin sales so they have to compete in a different way: a better product. Boeing knows the c-series could become a major player if it doesn't intervene, they are not going to just sit at the sides like they did with airbus in the 80's...

After a few hundred c-series orders on the book, they have years of production, so they are no longer in a rush for selling more c-series at negative margins.

That being said, Bombardier needs a better PR department (executive pay raises, late trains for Toronto, etc....)

[rookiepilot]

That being said, Bombardier needs a better PR department (executive pay raises, late trains for Toronto, etc....)

They don't need a better PR dept. Gosh it seems some Canadian companies have quite enough PR departments. It's the rest of the company that needs attention.

I don't understand why it isn't obvious how incompetent this company is, to everyone. They are currently sueing their major train customer (Metrolinx) for not rewarding them with new business, due to their own incompetence on the bungled train contract!

Just DO YOUR JOB. Bizzare how saying this is SO hysterically offensive to the snowflakes!

This company deserves to die. I'm tired of supporting them, and their rich pay packages, with my money.

We all know of course, if this was an Alberta company, it would be long, long gone. No federal money for the west, but we must mollycoddle Quebec.

[teacher]

I think Boeing is more worried about a future "CS500", "CS700", etc. Going back to the Airbus A300, Boeing wasn't too concerned as it was some weird European twin-engine wide body plane. Clearly they should have been.

As for Boeing and Embrarer, is it possible to stretch a 195 to comfortably seat as many as a 737-800? I don't think the E195 offers much competition to even the smallest 737.

Bombardier should take it as a huge compliment to the CS series. Boeing is considerably more upset about the CS100/CS300 than they are about the Embrarer E-jets.

Boeing is actually on record saying this exact thing that they are attacking Bombardier in order to prevent it from building a larger CSeries. They want to cut them off before they grow like Airbus did.

The CSeries is sold out until 2019/2020. It's better than anything Boeing and Airbus have and they are threatened by it.

[Transonic]

We all know of course, if this was an Alberta company, it would be long, long gone. No federal money for the west, but we must mollycoddle Quebec.

No, it wouldn't be. If Alberta had a strong aerospace company it would receive the same treatment. Digging something out of the ground for the sole reason to burn it is very different than building a jet aircraft. A strong aerospace industry is unique only to a small handful of countries.

[Zaibatsu]

There isn't a large aerospace company on the planet that didn't require tons of public dollars to be viable and their certainly have been many spectacular failures in that regard.

I'm not sure what makes Bombardier and Canada so special that way when you have MD who failed because the US government cancelled defence contracts and LM who left civil aviation entirely because they couldn't hack it in the private sector.

[212wrench]

We all know of course, if this was an Alberta company, it would be long, long gone. No federal money for the west, but we must mollycoddle Quebec.

No, it wouldn't be. If Alberta had a strong aerospace company it would receive the same treatment. Digging something out of the ground for the sole reason to burn it is very different than building a jet aircraft. A strong aerospace industry is unique only to a small handful of countries.

Well Alberta doesn't have the strong aerospace company because they are all in Quebec. Rookie hit the nail on the head!

[rookiepilot]

We all know of course, if this was an Alberta company, it would be long, long gone. No federal money for the west, but we must mollycoddle Quebec.

No, it wouldn't be. If Alberta had a strong aerospace company it would receive the same treatment. Digging something out of the ground for the sole reason to burn it is very different than building a jet aircraft. A strong aerospace industry is unique only to a small handful of countries.

You're implying rather strongly the west is incapable of starting a complex business apart from natural resources. I wouldn't agree with that.

There is no doubt that aid to BBD is all about where they are located in the country. I'd submit any 6th grader even knows that about Canada. Look at the tax proposals our fair haired leader is coming out with. Carbon taxes, and the pending small business tax changes that take from western Canada (family owned farms) to be able to give to Quebec (BBD).

Its obvious and blatant. And I don't even currently live in the west, and I see it.

[trey kule]

Our sock puppet prime minister and his gang need Quebec votes to stay in power. Alberta, for them is a write off. So Alberta can pay Quebec to keep them in power. Not a new thing.

And not just Bombardier.. Look at govt contracts...the big ones like defense industries.

I just wish I could own a company where I could use taxpayers dollars to pay myself a huge bonus.
Or go on a quarter million dollar Xmas holiday on the taxpayers' credit card.

I would even to be willing to stand up with a straight face and demand the evil rich start paying their fair share.

[Zaibatsu]

Makes me glad I left Alberta.

Never has there ever been a province of such perpetual whiners. They forget that BC pays and doesn't complain and forget that Manitoba takes in their fantasies of western separatism.

Why don't they have an aerospace industry? Because they have no motivation or foresight to do so. Why would they when they have oil. The closest thing they have to one is Viking and it's from BC.

[confusedalot]

I am from Quebec and I don't like the situation at all. Strong words I know, rather see BBD gone and see taxpayer money well spent for a change. (We all know that will never happen anyway).

As many before have said, it's not about money, it's about the prestige of having a canadian aerospace industry to play with the big boys. And sadly, all of the big boys the world over are subsidized one way or the other by taxpayers.

canada the good.........

[FishermanIvan]

Makes me glad I left Alberta.

Never has there ever been a province of such perpetual whiners. They forget that BC pays and doesn't complain and forget that Manitoba takes in their fantasies of western separatism.

Why don't they have an aerospace industry? Because they have no motivation or foresight to do so. Why would they when they have oil. The closest thing they have to one is Viking and it's from BC.

Nail on the head here. I don't miss Alberta at all.

[rigpiggy]

Makes me glad I left Alberta.

Never has there ever been a province of such perpetual whiners. They forget that BC pays and doesn't complain and forget that Manitoba takes in their fantasies of western separatism.

Why don't they have an aerospace industry? Because they have no motivation or foresight to do so. Why would they when they have oil. The closest thing they have to one is Viking and it's from BC.

I seem to remember that bristol aerospace lost out to a quebec company.

Oh and BC does complain, just not as loud!

Zaibatsu don't let the door hit you on yer way out, you probably won't be missed

[Old fella]

Government..... err tax dollars in the aviation industry. Well now a good example of that is the now defunct Concorde, built with very much assistance from both French and British state owned aerospace manufacturers and bought by (at the time state owned airlines BA and AF) as the only purchased operators. Braniff leased a few from BA/AF to flog around continental USA in early 80's but lasted only a very short time- months maybe.. All countries that have an aerospace industry provide assistance in all shapes and forms. Anybody remember the Canadair CL-600 issue late 70's early 80's and the "tax dollars"......

This thread is nothing new, just the generational differences of the common-taters....

Carry on.

[rookiepilot]

You guys are missing the point to some degree. BBD is incompetent in their TRAIN business to a huge degree, (just read @ metrolinx ) and the government is effectively bailing that out as well. The rot is far more than aerospace.

They make money on their skidoos, and rec gear. Did well with biz jets. Why not stick with what is working?

[YYZSaabGuy]

They make money on their skidoos, and rec gear. Did well with biz jets. Why not stick with what is working?

Nope: Bombardier Recreational Products (Ski-Doos, Can-Am motorcycles (ATVs and Spyder Roadsters), Sea-Doos, SportBoats, Evinrude Outboard Motors, and Rotax) was spun off by BBD 14 years ago to Bain Capital, the Caisse, and Beaudoin family members.

[Gino Under]

rookiepilot

The intellectual deficiencies in your commentaries regarding Bombardier as a company, corporate citizen and Canadian taxpayer, (not to mention their history and significance to Canadian aerospace) are blatantly obvious. Surely you can come up with something of greater intellectual interest, stimulation, substance, and value?

Metrolix is anything but their biggest customer. And, in case you need a reminder, there are two sides to this dispute. It is very simplistic to conclude that only one of these two parties is to blame for the fiasco. However, I should point out that you consistently fail to point this out in any of your vitriol.

By the way, Boeing has to take their complaint against Bombardier to the U.S. Commerce Department because none of their complaint is relevant to the WTO. It's about the U.S. domestic market and threats from outside that market. Their beef has as much to do with the looming potential for Comac, Sukhoi, Mitsubishi and Embraer sales as it does Bombardier. I doubt Bombardier sold Delta aeroplanes at anything but an agreed-to price. Just like any other sales negotiation. If the price was below cost it would have been the same approach Boeing took to sell their 787. Simply stated, because of the threat C series poses to Boeing 737 sales, they're doing what they need to do. That's all.


Gino

[rookiepilot]

rookiepilot

The intellectual deficiencies in your commentaries regarding Bombardier as a company, corporate citizen and Canadian taxpayer, (not to mention their history and significance to Canadian aerospace) are blatantly obvious. Surely you can come up with something of greater intellectual interest, stimulation, substance, and value?

Ok. I vote with my own dollars, as does the entire private sector, and I would never, ever, ever put one investment dollar into this walking disaster of a company, with a grossly overpaid management and a voting structure completely abusive to shareholder rights.

You dispute any of this? Even a moderate shareholder (I can't imagine why they hold the stock) like Ontario Teachers agrees.


https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report ... ndmail.com&


Just look at a long term stock chart of BBD, sport, then one of Boeing. Or Siemens, if trains are your yardstick, instead. Case closed. All the verdict I ever need.

Not one private investment firm would give BBD a dime, hence they cry to the government. They should die a merciful death.

You disagree, Gino? Put your own retirement dough into the stock, if you feel so strongly.

Fill your boots, champ. Invest with the Canadian flag on your sleeve.

I see your eye roll.

[trey kule]

If anyone would bother to do a bit of research , they would see both Bombardier and Embrarer have had trade disputes over subsidies against each other. Rulings against both of them.

Prime Minister sock puppet actually claimed at one point Boeing was suing the Canadian Government...something he walked back on. This is a trade dispute that he has made a political issue.

Makes him look the champion of Canada. Gets Quebec votes. And diverts attention away from his current tax grab..

If Canada does not get F18s, what is the alternative? The F35s he fought against?
Or maybe we could provide our military with rainbow coloured c172s, flown only by women, alphabet genders or visable minorities. Diversity is so important