Embarrassing Oops

[goingnowherefast]

Is the procedure really to land overweight? I can't imagine a pressurisation issue would prevent an airplane from flying around at 5000' burning gas until under max landing weight. If that's what the procedure is, then that's it. I just find it surprising.

[nohojob]

Yes the 737-800 can land overweight without causing any major issues. It is what you would do after an engine failure for instance. You wouldn't be turning during several hours with an engine on fire would you ?
All it takes after an overweight landing is an inspection.

[goingnowherefast]

Engine fire and pressurization problem are vastly different levels of severity and urgency. You can safely fly around all day with the cabin unpressurized. There's no safety reason to land ASAP, purely economic.

[oldtimer]

In the Beech 350,the Bleed Air switches have 3 positions, Off, Low and High. We use Off for normal shutdown and of course for smoke but the Low position reduces bleed air flow from the packs for improved take-off performance and I have gotten to a high altitude with max pressure diff with the bleeds Low.
With the newer models, they will hold the normal 6.5 psid pressure diff to the high flight levels in Bleeds Low but the people in the back get a bit cold. Solution is to turn the bleed High and it warms up.

[J31]

Is the procedure really to land overweight? I can't imagine a pressurisation issue would prevent an airplane from flying around at 5000' burning gas until under max landing weight. If that's what the procedure is, then that's it. I just find it surprising.

With no air flow from the packs I'm sure the cabin temperature would be climbing. Depending on the passenger/fuel load on the YYZ-YVR route you could be flying around for 2-3 hours burning fuel to get to landing weight.

Not an emergency but would you want to fly around for hours with hot, cranky passengers?

If you have the landing distance numbers it is not unsafe to land a 737-800 over max landing weight. At 165000 lbs (20000 lbs over landing weight) you can easily stop in 7000 ft.

[nohojob]

Coming back on a long runway is no big deal for an overweight landing with this aircraft. Again , just an inspection is required. Just don't slam the brakes and don't do a hard landing. I suppose you'd be able to dump fuel if overweight landing was a big deal with the 737/800.

[justwork]

When I used to fly the Q I had on 2 separate occasions the FO forget the bleeds in the after take off check. The plane climbs like a raped ape, by 6000' you can tell something is going on. Turn one bleed on and wait a thousand feet before turning on the other, this will help your ears out.

[Maynard]

How do you even get to FL240 without your ears telling you something is wrong? That seems crazy. "Gee my ears sure are popping more than normal, especially way up here at 13,000'" "Oh well, look at this climb performance!"

[confusedalot]

Coming back on a long runway is no big deal for an overweight landing with this aircraft. Again , just an inspection is required. Just don't slam the brakes and don't do a hard landing. I suppose you'd be able to dump fuel if overweight landing was a big deal with the 737/800.

No fuel dump on a 737. Need to get into bigger Boeings for that.

As far as forgetting switches, it's a two man crew and I suppose the Encore checklists are challenge and response, so it is inappropriate to blame the other guy.

Short and pressured turns bring their own characteristics which may have been a contributing factor to this incident, especially when a crew change is involved.

[Eric Janson]

I've been taught to always check that critical systems are operating normally during the climb.

I've also been taught to check all the switch positions when reaching cruise altitude.

This is basic Airmanship imho.

Sadly Airmanship is something that seems to have almost completely disappeared.

[fish4life]

if the crew didn't get the warning until FL240 then she must have been a pretty tight airplane to hold the cabin that long

[justwork]

if the crew didn't get the warning until FL240 then she must have been a pretty tight airplane to hold the cabin that long

Or set to min? I can't remember exactly but I thought on the Q the bleeds could be set to on/off but also min, norm, max?

[AnotherOldtimer]

Just goes to show you what lower levels of experience brings you.

What??!!! You have got lots of time? like 500hrs...

[Cliff Jumper]

Just goes to show you what lower levels of experience brings you.

What??!!! You have got lots of time? like 500hrs...

I have no horse in this race, but that comeback was nine months after the fact.

And your second post ever.

Might need to take it down 10 to 15% there squirly Dan.

[swordfish]

There are several checks in ANY pressurized aircraft to check that it's pressurizing normally. Most have a check after takeoff in case you took off bleeds-off, then thru 10,000' to see that it IS pressurizing, then in the cruise check to see that the cabin agrees with the controller.

And is a Q400 able to hold a cabin of 10,000 at FL240 with the bleeds off? (or whatever the warning is at...) That is hard to believe.

[Jet Jockey]

How much pressurization is still available at 24000 feet with the switches off OR was the cabin so well sealed that it took that long to reach cabin warning altitude ? ( kudos to Bombardier/ maint if that is the case ) I worked on the dash at city express tooooo long ago

Ha! A City Express fellow from the past! Flew the Dash 7 for them in the late 80s before moving on to better things.

[crazyaviator]

Ha! A City Express fellow from the past! Flew the Dash 7 for them in the late 80s before moving on to better things.

My memory is quite dim but when Arkia ? airlines maintenance were "helping" the City Express AME s after the purchase of the Dash 7 A/C , One day a Dash 7 came in from Montreal and I did a walk-around ( I was an apprentice AME at the time ) I grabbed onto the #3 or #4 prop and moved it ( It had been replaced previous to the flight ) You could pivot the whole prop assembly many inches with your fingertips !!!!! Turns out the Arkia guys installed a military spec prop on the plane and the flange did not mate up.! On another occasion, on the night shift as time was running out, one of the Arkia guys ( RM ? ) took MANY pages of the inspection report and signed off every line item even though no work was done !

On another occasion, We brought a Dash 8 into the hangar and a fellow apprentice turned on the infrared heaters while we went to the old terminal building. When we came back, we could smell a burnt paint odor! The infrared heaters were a foot or so away from the tail and was burning the paint and badly warping the skin! Expensive lesson indeed! The one who turned the heater on went on to get his Dash 8 endorsement at City then promptly left for an eastern airline ( Air Nova ? ) I was canned by poppalardo for no good reason !