Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

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Mrbobmarly111
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Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#1 Post by Mrbobmarly111 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:35 am

So I've been a long time reader but never a poster and I think it's finally time yo break the silence. I have 20 years experience in the Canadian Aviation scene.

Anyways so I think Westjet has become the official new way to get hired at A.C. I have multiple friends working at both WestJet and regional westjet and what I've heard is more than 20+ westjet ppl getting September and October A.C. ground school spots and even more interviewing to go. This is a fact.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#2 Post by aV1aTOr » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:36 pm

There has been a slow trickle of WJ pilots moving to AC over the past couple years, but those numbers are a bit surprising all at once. I wonder if it's a new trend among junior WJ/Encore pilots, or simply a change in the AC hiring preference. We have no idea how many WJ pilots have resumes on file with AC, maybe more than previously thought.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#3 Post by Mr. North » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:51 pm

aV1aTOr wrote:We have no idea how many WJ pilots have resumes on file with AC, maybe more than previously thought.
I imagine everyone at Encore minus a few keeners so lets start with 350.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#4 Post by rudder » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:53 pm

10 years to CA at WJ with low retirement attrition over next decade.

2 years to CA at AC with significant growth/attrition over next decade.

For a mid to junior WJ FO or Encore pilot with a WJ number it is a no brainer. Might even be worth it for a junior WJ CA under 45 years old.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#5 Post by The Raven » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:26 pm

I met a nice young man from Westjet today waiting for his Air Canada interview. Very nice guy....hope he gets hired.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#6 Post by Ah_yeah » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:29 pm

It would make sense given the experience on the 737. The Max transition course should be easy for any WJ pilot. Continually robbing your own cpa carriers to the detriment of sustainable feed has its limits as well. Can't comment on the numbers above though. I agree the attrition and growth planned will be a driver for a while even though today's contract amendments will have a small dampening effect.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#7 Post by Air.Field » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:14 pm

I mentioned previously that the best place to go to get to AC is Encore. Regardless of WS going ALPA, there'll still be a guaranteed flow, and now a good shot at AC, almost as good as the "up to 80%" from express. Forget AC express carriers, go Encore. :?
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#8 Post by Inverted2 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:33 am

I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#9 Post by JBI » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:48 am

Degrees. Can't make any statements regarding this topic with out factoring in degrees.

Here's the thing in all of Air Canada's hiring at the moment. One could say we're still near the beginning of the wave, but it seems that whether it's PML 2.0 or OTS, the vast majority of people being hired by AC at the moment have degrees or a 3 year aviation diploma. I stand to be corrected, but all of the Encore, WJ or other OTS folks that recently went to AC have had degrees and it seems that even on the PML 2.0, the folks from the AC Express carriers that have degrees are, generally speaking, getting calls ahead of people without degrees.

So, IF you have a degree, then MAYBE going to Encore doesn't hurt your chances on getting on at AC (and gives you flow as a very good other option). However, at this time (and I do assume things will change) I have not heard of any OTS candidates getting hired on or even offered an interview at AC without a degree (or 3 year aviation diploma). Again, I stand to be corrected as I obviously don't know everyone who has interviewed or been hired (but I know a lot of them!)
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#10 Post by GATRKGA » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:14 am

Inverted2 wrote:I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.
4 from SR Oct 02. And indefinitely going forward.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#11 Post by TFTMB heavy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:00 am

JBI wrote:Degrees. Can't make any statements regarding this topic with out factoring in degrees.

Here's the thing in all of Air Canada's hiring at the moment. One could say we're still near the beginning of the wave, but it seems that whether it's PML 2.0 or OTS, the vast majority of people being hired by AC at the moment have degrees or a 3 year aviation diploma. I stand to be corrected, but all of the Encore, WJ or other OTS folks that recently went to AC have had degrees and it seems that even on the PML 2.0, the folks from the AC Express carriers that have degrees are, generally speaking, getting calls ahead of people without degrees.

So, IF you have a degree, then MAYBE going to Encore doesn't hurt your chances on getting on at AC (and gives you flow as a very good other option). However, at this time (and I do assume things will change) I have not heard of any OTS candidates getting hired on or even offered an interview at AC without a degree (or 3 year aviation diploma). Again, I stand to be corrected as I obviously don't know everyone who has interviewed or been hired (but I know a lot of them!)
I know someone with no degree that got an offer after sitting in the pool for a while. Me thinks their OTS options are thinning for upgradable candidates.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#12 Post by rudder » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:17 am

In the US you get hired at a major if you have:

- university degree, and
- regional jet (EMB/CRJ) CA experience and/or,
- experience on a larger commercial jet (Boeing/Airbus/etc), or
- military experience

In other words, most new-hires at US majors are immediately upgradeable. Not so at AC.

The only reason that an AC pilot with 12-24 months seniority can hold a CA bid is because 1000+ pilots ahead did not bid it.

Perhaps what AC should be doing is looking at what the contractual impediments are for some pilots to avoid the upgrade. Yes, lifestyle is a factor. But perhaps the 'restricted career bid' system and CA pay (particularly on the NB aircraft) is a contributing factor.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#13 Post by JBI » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:16 pm

TFTMB heavy wrote: I know someone with no degree that got an offer after sitting in the pool for a while. Me thinks their OTS options are thinning for upgradable candidates.
Thanks for sharing - did they apply during the last (March 2016) application window, or sometime before? And/or did they train at CEGEP Chicoutimi?
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#14 Post by digits_ » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:25 pm

rudder wrote: perhaps the 'restricted career bid' system
What's that?
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#15 Post by GATRKGA » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:03 pm

digits_ wrote:
rudder wrote: perhaps the 'restricted career bid' system
What's that?
In your career at AC you have

1 Narrow Body FO Bid
1 Narrow Body CA Bid
1 Wide Body FO Bid
1 Wide Body CA Bid
1 RP Bid
1 Unrestricted Free Bid which resets 15 years.

So unlike before where you could bounce around any airplane any time you want, now you have to strategize your career moves. For example, it may not make sense to burn your 787 FO Bid as a 6 month new hire just because you can hold it now, so that you can go on the 777 FO later and make more money. Unless you plan on using your unrestricted free bid to get out of the 787 jail when you can hold 777 provided you didn't use it before.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#16 Post by TFTMB heavy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:54 pm

JBI wrote:
TFTMB heavy wrote: I know someone with no degree that got an offer after sitting in the pool for a while. Me thinks their OTS options are thinning for upgradable candidates.
Thanks for sharing - did they apply during the last (March 2016) application window, or sometime before? And/or did they train at CEGEP Chicoutimi?
No and no.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#17 Post by altiplano » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 pm

The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#18 Post by complexintentions » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:09 am

GATRKGA wrote:
digits_ wrote:
rudder wrote: perhaps the 'restricted career bid' system
What's that?
In your career at AC you have

1 Narrow Body FO Bid
1 Narrow Body CA Bid
1 Wide Body FO Bid
1 Wide Body CA Bid
1 RP Bid
1 Unrestricted Free Bid which resets 15 years.

So unlike before where you could bounce around any airplane any time you want, now you have to strategize your career moves. For example, it may not make sense to burn your 787 FO Bid as a 6 month new hire just because you can hold it now, so that you can go on the 777 FO later and make more money. Unless you plan on using your unrestricted free bid to get out of the 787 jail when you can hold 777 provided you didn't use it before.
A B777 FO makes more money that a B787 FO?

Genuinely curious, not trolling. I thought newer equipment would pay more for some reason.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#19 Post by Rowdy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:10 am

complexintentions wrote:
A B777 FO makes more money that a B787 FO?

Genuinely curious, not trolling. I thought newer equipment would pay more for some reason.
777 carries more pax. Weighs more. Hence the higher pay. Age of the equipment has nothing to do with pay. :wink:
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#20 Post by yycflyguy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:33 am

Rowdy wrote:
complexintentions wrote:
A B777 FO makes more money that a B787 FO?

Genuinely curious, not trolling. I thought newer equipment would pay more for some reason.
777 carries more pax. Weighs more. Hence the higher pay. Age of the equipment has nothing to do with pay. :wink:
Until the 2020 re-opener and ACPA decides it's in the memberships' best interest to put WB jets on status pay... you know, for the lower of the two rates.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#21 Post by altiplano » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:05 am

Pay for us is a calculation based on a base amount plus a speed/mileage, and weight formula to get the total flying pay...

Base pay is the same both types.
Speed/mileage is calculated and paid the same for both @ .89.
777 weight 351,534
787 weight 246,613 (moving average based on composition of -8/-9)

Result is about $24/hour more on the 777...
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#22 Post by rudder » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:17 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Until the 2020 re-opener and ACPA decides it's in the memberships' best interest to put WB jets on status pay... you know, for the lower of the two rates.
The bargaining agenda will continue to tilt towards the lower 60 percent of the seniority list.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#23 Post by altiplano » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:51 am

I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#24 Post by complexintentions » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:07 pm

altiplano wrote:Pay for us is a calculation based on a base amount plus a speed/mileage, and weight formula to get the total flying pay...

Base pay is the same both types.
Speed/mileage is calculated and paid the same for both @ .89.
777 weight 351,534
787 weight 246,613 (moving average based on composition of -8/-9)

Result is about $24/hour more on the 777...
Thanks. Mulling over a move from CA B777 to CA B787 in the expat contract world. But the opposite is true in this case, B787 typically pays more due to supply/demand of suitably-qualified pilots at the moment and being a later generation of equipment. Weight of the machine has nothing to do with pay. Actually some of the highest-paying gigs in the world presently are on the B737.

Just found the different criteria interesting. I would have thought the B777/787 would be the same pay scales with increments based solely on years of service.

Apologies for the thread drift. Different discussion entirely, elsewhere.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#25 Post by altiplano » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:13 pm

I guess in the case of expat world the thing driving the pay on the 737/320 is the difficulty of the living situation and the scheduling... flying to po-dunk million person towns in China with a cadet to run the radios isn't very appealing.
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