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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:45 am 
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You've probably paid your dues working the ramp, or did the instructor route for years. Then you went up north and got some real experience living away from your family. Finally you got that coveted regional gig, better pay, and reliable machine. All your friends & family say how proud they are of you. And you feel proud yourself. For you should be.

Except after a month being on the line, you find out that a recent graduate with a cadet pathway program is in the exact spot you're in. This is where you f**k yourself over and get mad. You go on hating at the little guy.

Someone else's success doesn't diminish your own. If you believe life is a competition. Which by the way is a loosers mentality. If you feel that you've got something to prove then you're not truly successful. The only person you should be comparing yourself to is you the day prior.

The same goes with a fellow college with a better schedule, days off etc.

Aviation today is once again on the upswing. So many opportunities for all of us. Pick your area that makes you the most happy. While at the same time appreciate others choices and efforts to come up as well.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:30 am 
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Good points. However, you did miss out on the other side of that career climb. The cadet needs to realise that they are not where they are because they made better choices, not because they are a better pilot, not because they are smarter... they are where they are because they were born in the right year. That's it. Sometimes it's even down to what province you were born in... opportunity is not evenly distributed across our great nation. So, while the pilot who went north and put in his/her dues should not hate the pilot who walked into the job, the pilot who walks into the job has to be humble and recognise just how lucky they are and how good they have had it in comparison. Show some respect for those that came before and the sacrifices made because the job opportunities of today just didn't exist even a few years ago.

The short version, if you are attracting a lot of anger, it could be due to the attitude being put out.

On the larger scale, I would like to see us all working together for a better life for all of us. No dodging and avoiding a guy because he works for the enemy airline. Let the management worry about that crap... we all fly planes. Get rid of the hat watcher mentality.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am 
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Mach1 wrote:
Good points. However, you did miss out on the other side of that career climb. The cadet needs to realise that they are not where they are because they made better choices, not because they are a better pilot, not because they are smarter... they are where they are because they were born in the right year. That's it. Sometimes it's even down to what province you were born in... opportunity is not evenly distributed across our great nation. So, while the pilot who went north and put in his/her dues should not hate the pilot who walked into the job, the pilot who walks into the job has to be humble and recognise just how lucky they are and how good they have had it in comparison. Show some respect for those that came before and the sacrifices made because the job opportunities of today just didn't exist even a few years ago.

The short version, if you are attracting a lot of anger, it could be due to the attitude being put out.

On the larger scale, I would like to see us all working together for a better life for all of us. No dodging and avoiding a guy because he works for the enemy airline. Let the management worry about that crap... we all fly planes. Get rid of the hat watcher mentality.



Mach1 thanks for adding what I left off. I have to agree with appreciating where you are as a benefit of sacrifices made by others before you.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:55 am 
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So you think this is limited to TSC? AC is hiring my friend, you can march your degree on over there and enjoy the nice captains.

Like Mach1 said, maybe you attract it.

I've seen more pink socks, loose ties and wrinkly shirts at TSC in the last 2 years than. First impressions...



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:58 am 
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TFTMB heavy wrote:
So you think this is limited to TSC? AC is hiring my friend, you can march your degree on over there and enjoy the nice captains.

Like Mach1 said, maybe you attract it.

I've seen more pink socks, loose ties and wrinkly shirts at TSC in the last 2 years than. First impressions...


TSC- The Social Chameleon....I believe you're referring to another TSC acronym. Cheers



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:01 am 
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Having babysat my share of aviation cadets in various parts of the world, I think you can save your earnest pleas to not hate. If anything the overriding emotion most elicit is pity.

It's one thing to have missed out on a set of experiences. But to take it the next level and not even be aware that you may have missed out on a great deal, well...that deserves only condolences.

But hey, you can't miss what you never had, I suppose. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:02 am 
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TheSocialChameleon wrote:
TFTMB heavy wrote:
So you think this is limited to TSC? AC is hiring my friend, you can march your degree on over there and enjoy the nice captains.

Like Mach1 said, maybe you attract it.

I've seen more pink socks, loose ties and wrinkly shirts at TSC in the last 2 years than. First impressions...


TSC- The Social Chameleon....I believe you're referring to another TSC acronym. Cheers


My apologies.

This still stands though: Like Mach1 said, maybe you attract it.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:08 am 
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Maybe the attitude that attracts so much animosity is the same one that leads you to starting all your posts with "TSC", as if we're supposed to know what that means and who you are. It's like you're trying to turn yourself into a brand or a celebrity.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:47 am 
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Diadem wrote:
Maybe the attitude that attracts so much animosity is the same one that leads you to starting all your posts with "TSC", as if we're supposed to know what that means and who you are. It's like you're trying to turn yourself into a brand or a celebrity.


w00t! FWIW: WTH is up with that. GTFO.

LOL

J/K

L8R!



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:17 am 
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TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Mach1 thanks for adding what I left off. I have to agree with appreciating where you are as a benefit of sacrifices made by others before you.


I hope I didn't come off like I was ragging on you, because I wasn't. It's more of a general cautionary tale.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:25 am 
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Mach1 wrote:
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Mach1 thanks for adding what I left off. I have to agree with appreciating where you are as a benefit of sacrifices made by others before you.


I hope I didn't come off like I was ragging on you, because I wasn't. It's more of a general cautionary tale.


Not at all and I don't take anything personally. I receive it all as feedback. The constructive ones more! Cheers!



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:36 am 
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The kids getting in these days are going to be so shocked they'll piss their diapers when the music slows and that upgrade turns into 5+ years again; they'll sit at the bottom of seniority for years, confused as to why they're working every weekend. They may not have had to pay their dues up north, but they're going to pay them at the bottom! Flow on!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:33 am 
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TheSocialChameleon wrote:
TFTMB heavy wrote:
So you think this is limited to TSC? AC is hiring my friend, you can march your degree on over there and enjoy the nice captains.

Like Mach1 said, maybe you attract it.

I've seen more pink socks, loose ties and wrinkly shirts at TSC in the last 2 years than. First impressions...


TSC- The Social Chameleon....I believe you're referring to another TSC acronym. Cheers



:rolleyes:

Yeah i was wonder what TSC was standing for....

Wee bit weird.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Mach1 wrote:
Good points. However, you did miss out on the other side of that career climb. The cadet needs to realise that they are not where they are because they made better choices, not because they are a better pilot, not because they are smarter... they are where they are because they were born in the right year. That's it. Sometimes it's even down to what province you were born in... opportunity is not evenly distributed across our great nation. So, while the pilot who went north and put in his/her dues should not hate the pilot who walked into the job, the pilot who walks into the job has to be humble and recognise just how lucky they are and how good they have had it in comparison. Show some respect for those that came before and the sacrifices made because the job opportunities of today just didn't exist even a few years ago.

The short version, if you are attracting a lot of anger, it could be due to the attitude being put out.

On the larger scale, I would like to see us all working together for a better life for all of us. No dodging and avoiding a guy because he works for the enemy airline. Let the management worry about that crap... we all fly planes. Get rid of the hat watcher mentality.



A guy coming up any cadet route that has made it has just as much right to be proud as any other route. He didn't make "better choices," he (or she) made the right choices for them at the right time. Good on them.

I didn't "come up" either of those routes but respect them both. It isn't about being more humble and saying "OMG I am so lucky and honoured to be here" its just simply having mutual respect for your other pilots. How one gets somewhere is only important to them. Respect how they do their job now. Other than for making conversation in the cockpit I could careless where my FO came from, I care how they do their job now. I have flown with some good pilots from a variety of different background and experience levels. Having a couple thousand hours up north doesn't necessarily make you any better of a pilot. Doesn't necessarily make you worse either, and you aren't any more entitled to the job than the guy out of college cadet route.

I came the military route. We put 250 hour wonders in a Hornet with tons of responsibility, and they do the job quite well, they earned the spot by demonstrating skill as pilot and good learning curve in their previous flying. Experience isn't the be all and end all, there are tons of other factors too.

Lets just respect each other, and nothing wrong with being a little proud of what you accomplished no matter your path on getting there.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:15 pm 
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TSC has a different meaning on an aviation forum.

just putting it out there.



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:33 pm 
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http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/TSC


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Quote:
I came the military route. We put 250 hour wonders in a Hornet with tons of responsibility,


That is because they have two things in common.

Aptitude.

Excellent training.

Which is a complete galaxy away from civilian training, the military trains to produce excellent pilots.

Civilian training trains to make money for the school.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:29 pm 
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There is no "right" or "wrong" way, there is right or wrong attitudes.
Speaking of, coming to work with a positive attitude and a mindset you're there to learn something goes a long way, regardless of what seat your in, or how many hours you have logged.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:35 am 
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Skyhunter wrote:

I came the military route. We put 250 hour wonders in a Hornet with tons of responsibility, and they do the job quite well, they earned the spot by demonstrating skill as pilot and good learning curve in their previous flying. Experience isn't the be all and end all, there are tons of other factors too.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_CF-18_Hornet#Losses

Quote:
Canada has lost at least twenty CF-18s in accidents, incurring at least eleven pilot deaths, as of November 28, 2016


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Lockheed_C-130_Hercules#.C2.A0Canada

And also about ten C-130s.... among other types......


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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:50 am 
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A couple times we've had F-18 pilots try to join our airline and they don't make it through the training. They are very good at the very specific tasks they are trained to execute in the military.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:23 pm 
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When I was in the training business I had a mix of airline pilots and military pilots as my clients, I found them to be the same as any other pilot, some were born naturals and some were paint by numbers pilots.

The minimum skills requirement to get a license is set so the lowest common denominator can struggle through the training and pass a ride.


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After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:41 am 
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Received this in a PM

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I can't believe you went there in conversation about respect. I won't dignify it with a public response, but you have crossed a line! Some of those losses involved the loss of close personal friends. Doing jobs most civilian pilots could not comprehend.

This was the most asshole and insensitive comment I have ever seen posted on avcanada. I have now lost all respect for anything else you have said here or will post again.

I hope you are happy with yourself.


This gentleman might be correct that some of these crashes involved highly skilled pilots who were tasked with doing perilous things.

But not all. To use the fact that the RCAF puts 250 hour pilots at the controls of a CF-18 is proof that good vetting, training and selection (the washout rate is very high) can replace experience does not hold water. It just compensates.

I agree that the training is excellent and wish the civilian pilots could afford such training, but its not possible.

The RCAF, had its fair share of accidents caused by pilot error, such as CFITs, not while just performing dangerous tactical flights, but on regular fights as well.

Like their civilian counterparts, RCAF pilots have crashed on take off, on landing, had CFITs, crashed into the approach lights while landing, stalled and crashed, had mid air collisions, or lost control of and crashed a perfectly airworthy aircraft. Many eject after having a failure that civilan pilots would end with an emergency landing. Their SOPs requires the ejection.....

In fact, the RCAF is unique in the world, that it operates the only front line tactical fighter that was ejected out of, not once but twice by its pilot, repaired, and put back into service after both ejections.

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/CF-18/cf_18_hornet.htm

Here it is......

Image

(I heard of a RCAF pilot who had a major failure, made an emergency landing, saved his aircraft, and got very close to being reprimanded for not ejecting.)

So to use the RCAF as an example that putting highly trained and vetted 250 hour pilots at the command of complex aircraft can be done in the civilian life is a bit far fetched. I would not put my family on board an airliner flown by two pilots who had been trained the military way and whose total combined experience did not exceed 1000 hours. The military trains its pilots to simply eject when things go terribly wrong, and this is not an option in civilian aircraft where the pilot must either survive with his passengers or die with them.

That said, I do not claim that the RCAF is worse that other military pilots in other air forces. Not at all. All Air Forces have many crashes because of the nature of their work. They put 250 hour wonders that the controls of large transports and front line fighter pilots because there is just no other way. So they compensate that lack of experience with extreme vetting, extensive and excellent training and a costly selection process with a high washout rate, which to some degree, compensates for lack of experience, but not enough for me to ever accept to put my children in an airliner whose pilots received such a high level training but who lack any real world experience.

So according to the gentleman who sent me the nasty PM, we can study and question the decisions and actions of deceased civilian pilots, but I get hate mail for suggesting that the performance of any RCAF pilot involved in an accident was anything but exemplary.


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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:51 am 
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Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Received this in a PM

Quote:
I can't believe you went there in conversation about respect. I won't dignify it with a public response, but you have crossed a line! Some of those losses involved the loss of close personal friends. Doing jobs most civilian pilots could not comprehend.

This was the most asshole and insensitive comment I have ever seen posted on avcanada. I have now lost all respect for anything else you have said here or will post again.

I hope you are happy with yourself.


This gentleman might be correct that some of these crashes involved highly skilled pilots who were tasked with doing perilous things.

But not all. To use the fact that the RCAF puts 250 hour pilots at the controls of a CF-18 is proof that good vetting, training and selection (the washout rate is very high) can replace experience does not hold water. It just compensates.

I agree that the training is excellent and wish the civilian pilots could afford such training, but its not possible.

The RCAF, had its fair share of accidents caused by pilot error, such as CFITs, not while just performing dangerous tactical flights, but on regular fights as well.

In fact, the RCAF is unique in the world, that it operates the only front line tactical fighter that was ejected out of, not once but twice by its pilot, repaired, and put back into service after both ejections.

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/CF-18/cf_18_hornet.htm

Here it is......

Image

Like their civilian counterparts, RCAF pilots have crashed on take off, on landing, had CFITs, crashed into the approach lights while landing, stalled and crashed, had mid air collisions, or lost control of and crashed a perfectly airworthy aircraft. Many eject after having a failure that civilan pilots would end with an emergency landing. Their SOPs requires the ejection.....

(I heard of a RCAF pilot who had such a failure, made an emergency landing, saved his aircraft, and got very close to being reprimanded for not ejecting.)

So to use the RCAF as an example that putting highly trained and vetted 250 hour pilots at the command of complex aircraft can be done in the civilian life is a bit far fetched. I would not put my family on board an airliner flown by two pilots who had been trained the military way and whose total combined experience did not exceed 1000 hours. The military trains its pilots to simply eject when things go terribly wrong, and this is not an option in civilian aircraft where the pilot must either survive with his passengers or die with them.

That said, I do not claim that the RCAF is worse that other military pilots in other air forces. Not at all. All Air Forces have many crashes because of the nature of their work. They put 250 hour wonders that the controls of large transports and front line fighter pilots because there is just no other way. So they compensate that lack of experience with extreme vetting, extensive and excellent training and a costly selection process with a high washout rate, which to some degree, compensates for lack of experience, but not enough for me to ever accept to put my children in an airliner whose pilots received such a high level training but who lack any real world experience.

So we can study and question the decisions and actions of deceased civilian pilots, but I get hate mail for suggesting that the performance of any RCAF pilot involved in an accident was anything but exemplary.


I agree with the PM. Frankly, Gilles...... you're out of line for hijacking this thread for your own agenda, and using it to piss on the military. Too many love to do that.

This thread is nothing to do with examining the RCAF, nor are most of us qualified to do so.



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:09 am 
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WTF are you talking about.

Gilles' post was one of the most articulate, rational statements on the pros and cons of excellent training versus operational experience I've read. Backed up conclusively with facts, not rhetoric. I fail to see a single personal attack or emotional argument.

I cannot say the same about angry PM's and phrases like "pissing on".

Quote:
To use the fact that the RCAF puts 250 hour pilots at the controls of a CF-18 is proof that good vetting, training and selection (the washout rate is very high) can replace experience does not hold water. It just compensates.


Very, very well expressed. As did Cat:

Quote:
When I was in the training business I had a mix of airline pilots and military pilots as my clients, I found them to be the same as any other pilot, some were born naturals and some were paint by numbers pilots.


Pointing out that the RCAF has the same issues with low-experience pilots as the civilian world isn't an attack, it's just reality. I've lost friends and colleagues from both worlds in accidents, it's tragic but I don't get all offended every time the errors that were made are pointed out.

I guess we all have our sacred cows, but I thought placing one's military above all reproach was more of an American thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:28 am 
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rookiepilot wrote:

I agree with the PM. Frankly, Gilles...... you're out of line for hijacking this thread for your own agenda, and using it to piss on the military. Too many love to do that.

This thread is nothing to do with examining the RCAF, nor are most of us qualified to do so.


Linking to 2 wikipedia articles with verified information is hijacking a thread now? To use some abbreviations again: WTF?

Nice example of "Pilots hating on Pilots" :roll:



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