Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

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'97 Tercel
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#26 Post by '97 Tercel » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:39 pm

Inverted2 wrote:I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.

Do you know which PML 'version' those 5 are from?

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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#27 Post by Inverted2 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:35 am

'97 Tercel wrote:
Inverted2 wrote:I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.

Do you know which PML 'version' those 5 are from?

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At least 1 is from the old PML. Deferred the full 2 years.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#28 Post by co-joe » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:18 am

altiplano wrote:I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.
Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#29 Post by JBI » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:02 pm

co-joe wrote:
altiplano wrote:I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.
Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.
As far as I know, all applied during last year's OTS opening.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#30 Post by GATRKGA » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:06 pm

altiplano wrote:The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#31 Post by aV1aTOr » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:58 am

GATRKGA wrote:
altiplano wrote:The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#32 Post by RVR6000 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:20 am

aV1aTOr wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:
altiplano wrote:The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#33 Post by altiplano » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:21 am

RVR6000 wrote:
aV1aTOr wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.
Correct you would accumulate them.

The corporation will do what it ultimately has to do though to staff the positions and get what they want - like votes on a concessionary deal - a good example being the extra course rights they just doled out to guys that already blew theirs... while most of us planned ahead...

The playing field is constantly changing.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#34 Post by aV1aTOr » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:08 pm

altiplano wrote:
RVR6000 wrote:
aV1aTOr wrote:
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.
Correct you would accumulate them.

The corporation will do what it ultimately has to do though to staff the positions and get what they want - like votes on a concessionary deal - a good example being the extra course rights they just doled out to guys that already blew theirs... while most of us planned ahead...

The playing field is constantly changing.
I can't believe the NC agreed to this part. We rewarded impatience and punished prudence. If they're handing out CRs, everyone should have gotten a free bid to any rouge seat or a free bid out of a rouge seat.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#35 Post by co-joe » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:42 pm

JBI wrote:
co-joe wrote:
altiplano wrote:I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.
Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.
As far as I know, all applied during last year's OTS opening.
Thanks JBI. That tends more towards mainline giving the express carriers a breather to catch up, rather than a WJ to AC pipeline.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#36 Post by TheStig » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:02 am

The application window is expected to open 'soon'.

Just out of curiosity can someone who has seen the language of PML 2.0 explain what it states? The first PML was very specific with respect to what AC's obligations were to the Jazz pilots on the list. It appears as though the 80% ratio of Express/OTS no longer applies.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#37 Post by skypirate88 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:44 am

TheStig wrote:The application window is expected to open 'soon'.

Just out of curiosity can someone who has seen the language of PML 2.0 explain what it states? The first PML was very specific with respect to what AC's obligations were to the Jazz pilots on the list. It appears as though the 80% ratio of Express/OTS no longer applies.
The language states AC will fill new hire classes with up to 80% from the Express carriers. I think what we are seeing right now is that AC is allowing the Express carriers a chance to breath and get caught up a little with their own staff levels. It will be a very fine line between balancing the needs of AC and having enough staff at Express for them to meet their CPA obligations.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#38 Post by TheStig » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:05 am

skypirate88 wrote: The language states AC will fill new hire classes with up to 80% from the Express carriers. I think what we are seeing right now is that AC is allowing the Express carriers a chance to breath and get caught up a little with their own staff levels. It will be a very fine line between balancing the needs of AC and having enough staff at Express for them to meet their CPA obligations.
I agree the first PML must have put a huge strain on Jazz to replace the pilots who left. I hate to be the skeptic here, but would you agree that there is really no such thing as PML 2.0? To the extent that being at an Express carrier offers no inside track to AC. Even including the pilots who have deferred AC is now hiring primarily from outside the Express pilot group again and has only committed to offering Express pilots the chance of an interview.

Given the size of the pilot pool at Jazz/GGN/SR looking to come to AC compared to Sunwing, Transat and WJ/WJe, it would seem that if anything the Express pilots are less likely to successfully join AC, much like in the 2005-2008 hiring period. The rules of the game seem to have changed again in between periods.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#39 Post by infiniteregulus » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:56 am

Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is audacious!
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#40 Post by yyctwin » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:27 pm

infiniteregulus wrote:Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is audacious!
Congrats you're "That Guy" for this forum.

Entitlement? I don't think hoping for the carrot that has been dangled in front of you is infact actually the carrot you believe it to be is such a bad thing.
In 2015 when the latest contract was drawn up and Jazz pilots took a step backwards accepting lower pay in order to maintain AC's competitiveness shading the Encores of the world. They did so with the promise that future pilots coming to Jazz would suffer in the short term for long term advantages. It wasn't something drawn up by Mainline hungry Jazz pilots. It was something both AC and Jazz management pushed, promoted and eventually sold to them. Hoping that something You signed off on, paid your dues towards and worked hard at actually comes to fruition in my opinion is deserved. The express pilots while on a smaller scale have still allowed AC to benefit greatly, pull in record profits and remain competitive.
At the end of their day they have earned the right to feel entitlement to a brighter future and if the future generations who have a goal of flying for one of the 2 Canadian Majors realize Encore if the better route cause their guaranteed 1 if the other doesn't work out. Guess what happens when the applicants dry up at the regionals Air Canada flights get cancelled, Air Canada passengers get screwed, Air Canada tickets stop being purchased and Air Canada astronauts sitting in their space shuttles become affected.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#41 Post by altiplano » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:15 pm

No. They rouge the express flights...

That's the latest and greatest...
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#42 Post by infiniteregulus » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:07 pm

I agree it's in EVERYBODY's best interest for AC to take the majority of their new hires from Express. However, it stands to reason that scalping Express to the point they can't staff their flights anymore is non-sustainable and unprofitable. I don't think AC has implemented the process in a smart manner as there's obvious flaws in it all. However, I believe we should all call a spade a spade here and the PML is NOT FLOW. I don't know why guys are getting angry at that. Really they should be calling it the GIL (Guaranteed Interview List). Now if management is indeed promoting the PML in terms of it being flow, that's them being wrongful and manipulative. I can't speak on their behalf but I find that very deceitful. In the end, life in business isn't about what one deserves, but what makes the most money. You could be the best employee on the planet, but if picking you hurts the process of making money, you will get thrown under the bus every time. Sorry, but life isn't fair with rainbows and lollypops. Entitlement is a very unhealthy view and should never be justified. Entitlement happens to be the next big issue in the upcoming generation. All I can say is hopefully AC realizes the mistake they've made in their implementation of this PML, and correct it with a better established arrangement.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#43 Post by Victory » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:49 pm

Yeah like just doing all the regional flying themselves again.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#44 Post by RVR6000 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:37 pm

yyctwin wrote:
infiniteregulus wrote:Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is audacious!

At the end of their day they have earned the right to feel entitlement to a brighter future and if the future generations who have a goal of flying for one of the 2 Canadian Majors realize Encore if the better route cause their guaranteed 1 if the other doesn't work out. Guess what happens when the applicants dry up at the regionals Air Canada flights get cancelled, Air Canada passengers get screwed, Air Canada tickets stop being purchased and Air Canada astronauts sitting in their space shuttles become affected.
I think Air Canada reserves the rights to pick and choose individuals who they see fit for their organization. They have let go of a few new PML individuals and reinstated the psych and personality test specifially for this reason, people with entitlement issues and bad attitudes. Just because you flew their passengers doesn’t make you automatically qualified. With that logic EVAS, Georgian, Sky Regional heck even Wasaya Pilots (under the Jazz agreement) should all just walk in, screw the interview even.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#45 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:58 pm

Does anyone know the numbers for today's class? From WestJet/Encore or Jazz etc?
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#46 Post by TheStig » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:24 am

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:Does anyone know the numbers for today's class? From WestJet/Encore or Jazz etc?
The class starts Oct 2nd.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#47 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:52 pm

Thx.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#48 Post by co-joe » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:50 pm

TheStig wrote:
Ex DC10 Driver wrote:Does anyone know the numbers for today's class? From WestJet/Encore or Jazz etc?
The class starts Oct 2nd.
How about now?
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#49 Post by PositiveRate27 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:34 pm

co-joe wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Ex DC10 Driver wrote:Does anyone know the numbers for today's class? From WestJet/Encore or Jazz etc?
The class starts Oct 2nd.
How about now?
Lost of express on this one. 4 jazz 1.0, 1 GGN, 1 Sky, 10 Jazz 2.0. The rest are OTS. At least one from CMA. Not sure about the rest.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

#50 Post by '97 Tercel » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:59 pm

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