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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:57 am 
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Inverted2 wrote:
All they are going to do is ask which social media platform is best for trying to attract future pilots. Don't expect it to get too "contractual". But do enjoy a paid day out there and have a few :drinkers: afterwards.


One would think they would just email out a survey as a cost effective means?



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:56 am 
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rudder wrote:
FYI - as the Jazz pilots are represented by ALPA, it is illegal for the company to survey, interview, or solicit opinion from any Jazz pilots on any issues covered under the collective agreement.

It would appear that some attendees are not aware of the terms of reference of the focus group. You may therefore be disappointed with the actual content of the discussions.


Hey,

I am going and I realize that discussing the contract isn't an option. But I'm going into it with full intentions of telling them how encore has now become the path to Air Canada and a more suitable regional option in terms of long term career progression if going and flying the big metal is what you want.

RP



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Why do you say Encore is preferred over Jazz these days to get to AC?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Rupert_Pupkin wrote:
rudder wrote:
FYI - as the Jazz pilots are represented by ALPA, it is illegal for the company to survey, interview, or solicit opinion from any Jazz pilots on any issues covered under the collective agreement.

It would appear that some attendees are not aware of the terms of reference of the focus group. You may therefore be disappointed with the actual content of the discussions.


Hey,

I am going and I realize that discussing the contract isn't an option. But I'm going into it with full intentions of telling them how encore has now become the path to Air Canada and a more suitable regional option in terms of long term career progression if going and flying the big metal is what you want.

RP


+1.

I have a feeling (or a hope), that the PML will pick up throughout the fall and winter, as the summer was because AC historically doesn't have groundschools, as well as giving the express carriers an opportunity to catch up in their own hiring. Add that to that fact that Jazz is planning on hiring 400 pilots next year, you have to think the flood gates will give. But again, this is my optimistic thinking. It's that darn tootin carrot I tells ya.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Rupert_Pupkin wrote:

Hey,

I am going and I realize that discussing the contract isn't an option. But I'm going into it with full intentions of telling them how encore has now become the path to Air Canada and a more suitable regional option in terms of long term career progression if going and flying the big metal is what you want.

RP


That is fair game. Getting hired at AC has nothing to do with the Jazz pilot collective agreement. And Jazz will tell you the same.

Ultimately, it will be up to AC to determine whether PMLv2.0 is a legitimate recruiting tool for the AC Express carriers or just a bait and switch tactic.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:48 pm 
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rudder wrote:
Rupert_Pupkin wrote:

Hey,

I am going and I realize that discussing the contract isn't an option. But I'm going into it with full intentions of telling them how encore has now become the path to Air Canada and a more suitable regional option in terms of long term career progression if going and flying the big metal is what you want.

RP


That is fair game. Getting hired at AC has nothing to do with the Jazz pilot collective agreement. And Jazz will tell you the same.

Ultimately, it will be up to AC to determine whether PMLv2.0 is a legitimate recruiting tool for the AC Express carriers or just a bait and switch tactic.


All of my friends at my previous employer have heard about myself and 3 other ex employees all getting pfo'd from 2.0 and have since changed their minds on Jazz. I think the company needs to know that (probably cant do anything about it) but if they are wondering why they can't get the 1500-2000 hour pilots anymore, I think that's a big reason.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:30 pm 
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I'd agree with you. I know of a bunch too who intend to simply bypass the express carriers to AC, and refuse to partake in PML v2.0.

Both Jazz and AC management are still thinking it's 2001.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:02 pm 
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The fact they are having this "open forum focus group" shows they are slowly realizing it, but I doubt they will be willing to do any "meaningful" action to fix it. Even though a lot of it rests in the hands of AC with their poor show of PML 2.0.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Perhaps I'm being optimistic too and perhaps a bit realistic. Let's put some things in perspective. And again, this is all speculation.

1. First of all, before we go all crazy on Encore being the new PML, keep in mind that those pilots applied in the last OTS Opening which was March 2016! Everyone hired had degrees and plenty of experience.

2. The PML window for Jazz opened in Dec 2016 and many Jazz guys were hired in March/April classes. So they were basically hired at quite a fast pace compared to any other OTS applicant. So keep that in mind. They were many hired from Jazz at the start of the year. Then things slowed down for the summer for AC hiring in general.

3. Yes, this time around there are a lot more PFOs. But also keep in mind, PML 2.0 has a lot less experienced pilots. In fact, there were several pilots that couldn't even sign up due to the ATPL/2000hr requirements. PML 2.0 doesn't automatically guarantee you Air Canada. You still have to go through a rigorous interview process.

4. What would you do if you were in Air Canada's place? Keep hiring from Jazz and basically shoot yourself in the foot? They will hire but maybe not at the pace of PML 1.0. This is a bit of a generalization, but come on, almost everyone on PML 2.0 is averaging 30. So to get the opportunity for AC at such an age was unthinkable even 5-10 years ago. Heck, at one point, a new Jazz FO needed 5000 hours to sit in the right seat.

My suggestion. Exercise a lot of patience. Going to Jazz will still be the fastest way to get to AC. However, if you have a degree and good 705/PIC experience, ONLY then is OTS potentially a better option.

PS: I'm 30. I'm on PML 2.0 and I'm waiting. So I get the pain. But let's not start unsubstantiated propaganda based on only the candidates in 2 AC ground schools.

The pleasure of what we have is lost by wanting more.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:31 am 
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flymore wrote:
Perhaps I'm being optimistic too and perhaps a bit realistic. Let's put some things in perspective. And again, this is all speculation.

1. First of all, before we go all crazy on Encore being the new PML, keep in mind that those pilots applied in the last OTS Opening which was March 2016! Everyone hired had degrees and plenty of experience.

2. The PML window for Jazz opened in Dec 2016 and many Jazz guys were hired in March/April classes. So they were basically hired at quite a fast pace compared to any other OTS applicant. So keep that in mind. They were many hired from Jazz at the start of the year. Then things slowed down for the summer for AC hiring in general.

3. Yes, this time around there are a lot more PFOs. But also keep in mind, PML 2.0 has a lot less experienced pilots. In fact, there were several pilots that couldn't even sign up due to the ATPL/2000hr requirements. PML 2.0 doesn't automatically guarantee you Air Canada. You still have to go through a rigorous interview process.

4. What would you do if you were in Air Canada's place? Keep hiring from Jazz and basically shoot yourself in the foot? They will hire but maybe not at the pace of PML 1.0. This is a bit of a generalization, but come on, almost everyone on PML 2.0 is averaging 30. So to get the opportunity for AC at such an age was unthinkable even 5-10 years ago. Heck, at one point, a new Jazz FO needed 5000 hours to sit in the right seat.

My suggestion. Exercise a lot of patience. Going to Jazz will still be the fastest way to get to AC. However, if you have a degree and good 705/PIC experience, ONLY then is OTS potentially a better option.

PS: I'm 30. I'm on PML 2.0 and I'm waiting. So I get the pain. But let's not start unsubstantiated propaganda based on only the candidates in 2 AC ground schools.

The pleasure of what we have is lost by wanting more.



The PML is the best option 100% for sure. Any AC EXpress gives you the same chance and same timeframe. Jazz advantage is only if the music stops and you need to spend a longer period of time in Express than you planned.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:03 pm 
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I have flown with several pilots now who have been pFO'd on PML 2.0 and a couple who were similarly rejected on PML1.0. All have been excellent people and excellent pilots some even with degrees. Meanwhile I have watched some absolute douchebags get hired by AC. It makes for a very quiet cockpit and I am frankly at a loss for what to say to them. Any ideas? The best I can come up with is the old "Bad things happen to good people"?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:13 pm 
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I can’t speak for what AC hiring protocols are but I do feel a lot of people underestimate how much preparation a major airline interview needs. It might be unfair to the good guys, but interview prep is a job by itself. You could be the best pilot in the world, but you still have to go through the interview and ace it.

Like it’s been mentioned before, PML just guarantees you an interview. Even hours and degrees just get you the interview. You have to sell yourself and earn the job yourself.

Again, it’s unfair to measure someone just from a half to 1 hour interview, but does anyone have any better suggestion?

Yes, a pure flow through would be awesome, but that means Jazz recruitment processes have to match Air Canada.



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:46 am 
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IMO, the Jazz process is better...sim eval and no silly video games.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:51 am 
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'97 Tercel has it. The Jazz process is actually more involved than the AC recruitment process. I think the only spot that they have that is more rigorous is their in house medical. Ours is simply drug screening by local contractors, which I'v heard may change.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm 
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flymore wrote:
4. What would you do if you were in Air Canada's place? Keep hiring from Jazz and basically shoot yourself in the foot?....


If they don't hire rapidly from Express, they'll quickly run out of applicants to the Express system. Need to have the actual carrot to dangle.

What's the average experience getting hired at Jazz now? Do they even have an ATPL anymore?



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:46 am 
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goingnowherefast wrote:
flymore wrote:
4. What would you do if you were in Air Canada's place? Keep hiring from Jazz and basically shoot yourself in the foot?....


If they don't hire rapidly from Express, they'll quickly run out of applicants to the Express system. Need to have the actual carrot to dangle.

What's the average experience getting hired at Jazz now? Do they even have an ATPL anymore?


If you look at the yearly total for Air Canada hiring, they’ve actually hired Many Express candidates. Jan-March had a huge amount of Jazz pilots go. People are getting super overhyped over the ground schools over the last 2 months, and the lack of candidates there. A 2-3 month lull is nothing to worry about. There’s people at Jazz who’ve only been there from 6 months to 1 year and are already at Air Canada. So the carrot is very much there. It’s just that those people aren’t speaking about their experiences. Jazz is the fastest way to get to AC. If you saw the whole picture, you would agree 100%.

The average new pilot at Jazz now has anywhere from 600-1000 hours. Then there’s a whole bunch of 200 hour college guys. In fact, there were a lot of people on PML 2.0 that couldn’t even sign up cause they didn’t have the time or ATPL. This also plays a part in the low numbers of AC hiring. There just aren’t enough qualified candidates. If Air Canada had a BIG pool of qualified candidates from Jazz with lots of experience and degrees etc, then no problem. They had that with PML 1.0.

Sorry to be blunt, but the entitled few at Jazz need to realize that they may need to work a little longer than their 1-2 years to earn an interview at Air Canada. And even then, they may not make it through.

The industry has a huge shortage and carrot or no carrot, pilots can’t plan their career over a PML. A lot of this carrot, I must say, is self-dangled. As mentioned earlier, be patient guys. Your time will come.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:01 pm 
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Not to mention most of you new pilots couldn't fly your way out of a paper bag because you have absolutely no hands and feet. The downside of rapid movement. The accident is coming. Can you smell it?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:03 pm 
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biatch wrote:
Not to mention most of you new pilots couldn't fly your way out of a paper bag because you have absolutely no hands and feet. The downside of rapid movement. The accident is coming. Can you smell it?


Aren’t you a treat.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:51 am 
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When we are on the subject of pay, can someone tell me what does today (2017) captain and FO make starting pay on a normal block of 80hrs (NO OVER TIME OR PER DIEM PLEASE)

As well, what does someone has to look forward to in say 5-6 years down the road as a captain pay and FO (in case the music stops for whatever reason)

To sum it up, all I would like to know is the after tax take home pay and lets say you have to participate in the family health and medical benefits as they are a descent chunk of your pay at Jazz.

Thanks guys!



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:02 am 
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Normal pay after tax and every deduction (I have family insurance so it's more expensive), is 1000$ per two weeks (40 credits). First year F/O YUL based. Actually pretty simple, about 44% of the salary are deductions for me (tax and benefits). My guess, captains would be close to 60% in deductions because of higher taxes. So if you're a 5 year captain, you would make about 85 000$ gross per year at 80 credits. After deductions, there would probably be only 40 000$ left so around 1700$ net per two weeks. That would be higher if you are based in another base then YUL or if you are single (and don't have to pay as much for the family insurance).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:28 am 
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Ikarus, the 2018 1st year captain pay will be 77.90/hr, 5-6 years down the road the 2023 5 year hourly will be 99.08/hr assuming no improvements due to the pilot shortage. That accounts for the 2% annual increase, compounded. You can count on averaging 82.5 credits per month, as my entire time at Jazz that is what it has been.
Next, my deductions are about 45% at 11 year Captain pay, based on family benefits, pension and I contribute the max to the employee share purchase(6%) matched at 60% of the amount contributed, this is over and above the pension previously mentioned. Yes, it would be more deducted in Quebec, some who are based in YUL either commute or live just inside the Ontario border, so even though the taxes are Quebec amounts, at the end of the year if you live elsewhere you would get it back. If you want to live in Quebec, well, you pay the taxes associated.
I'm sorry but I can't speak to how much is deducted for the DC pension but I assume it'll be close.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Kapitanov wrote:
Normal pay after tax and every deduction (I have family insurance so it's more expensive), is 1000$ per two weeks (40 credits). First year F/O YUL based. Actually pretty simple, about 44% of the salary are deductions for me (tax and benefits). My guess, captains would be close to 60% in deductions because of higher taxes. So if you're a 5 year captain, you would make about 85 000$ gross per year at 80 credits. After deductions, there would probably be only 40 000$ left so around 1700$ net per two weeks. That would be higher if you are based in another base then YUL or if you are single (and don't have to pay as much for the family insurance).


Oh man. I cannot believe these numbers.......A 5 year captain grosses 85k?? That is so depressing that it kinda breaks my heart.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Could change if the US decides to open the border for us...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:14 am 
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Last edited by drh2 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Not quite accurate,
6 years from now, you would be at 4 year Capt pay.
Based on 80 credits a month, (average is typically over 83), would gross you over 100K as an absolute minimum.



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