Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

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altiplano
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by altiplano »

Pay for us is a calculation based on a base amount plus a speed/mileage, and weight formula to get the total flying pay...

Base pay is the same both types.
Speed/mileage is calculated and paid the same for both @ .89.
777 weight 351,534
787 weight 246,613 (moving average based on composition of -8/-9)

Result is about $24/hour more on the 777...
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rudder
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by rudder »

yycflyguy wrote:
Until the 2020 re-opener and ACPA decides it's in the memberships' best interest to put WB jets on status pay... you know, for the lower of the two rates.
The bargaining agenda will continue to tilt towards the lower 60 percent of the seniority list.
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altiplano
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by altiplano »

I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
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complexintentions
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by complexintentions »

altiplano wrote:Pay for us is a calculation based on a base amount plus a speed/mileage, and weight formula to get the total flying pay...

Base pay is the same both types.
Speed/mileage is calculated and paid the same for both @ .89.
777 weight 351,534
787 weight 246,613 (moving average based on composition of -8/-9)

Result is about $24/hour more on the 777...
Thanks. Mulling over a move from CA B777 to CA B787 in the expat contract world. But the opposite is true in this case, B787 typically pays more due to supply/demand of suitably-qualified pilots at the moment and being a later generation of equipment. Weight of the machine has nothing to do with pay. Actually some of the highest-paying gigs in the world presently are on the B737.

Just found the different criteria interesting. I would have thought the B777/787 would be the same pay scales with increments based solely on years of service.

Apologies for the thread drift. Different discussion entirely, elsewhere.
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altiplano
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by altiplano »

I guess in the case of expat world the thing driving the pay on the 737/320 is the difficulty of the living situation and the scheduling... flying to po-dunk million person towns in China with a cadet to run the radios isn't very appealing.
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'97 Tercel
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by '97 Tercel »

Inverted2 wrote:I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.

Do you know which PML 'version' those 5 are from?

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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by Inverted2 »

'97 Tercel wrote:
Inverted2 wrote:I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.

Do you know which PML 'version' those 5 are from?

Cheers
At least 1 is from the old PML. Deferred the full 2 years.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by co-joe »

altiplano wrote:I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.
Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by JBI »

co-joe wrote:
altiplano wrote:I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.
Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.
As far as I know, all applied during last year's OTS opening.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by GATRKGA »

altiplano wrote:The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
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aV1aTOr
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by aV1aTOr »

GATRKGA wrote:
altiplano wrote:The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by RVR6000 »

aV1aTOr wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:
altiplano wrote:The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.
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altiplano
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by altiplano »

RVR6000 wrote:
aV1aTOr wrote:
GATRKGA wrote:
I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.
Correct you would accumulate them.

The corporation will do what it ultimately has to do though to staff the positions and get what they want - like votes on a concessionary deal - a good example being the extra course rights they just doled out to guys that already blew theirs... while most of us planned ahead...

The playing field is constantly changing.
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aV1aTOr
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by aV1aTOr »

altiplano wrote:
RVR6000 wrote:
aV1aTOr wrote:
Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.
Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.
Correct you would accumulate them.

The corporation will do what it ultimately has to do though to staff the positions and get what they want - like votes on a concessionary deal - a good example being the extra course rights they just doled out to guys that already blew theirs... while most of us planned ahead...

The playing field is constantly changing.
I can't believe the NC agreed to this part. We rewarded impatience and punished prudence. If they're handing out CRs, everyone should have gotten a free bid to any rouge seat or a free bid out of a rouge seat.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by co-joe »

JBI wrote:
co-joe wrote:
altiplano wrote:I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.
Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.
As far as I know, all applied during last year's OTS opening.
Thanks JBI. That tends more towards mainline giving the express carriers a breather to catch up, rather than a WJ to AC pipeline.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by TheStig »

The application window is expected to open 'soon'.

Just out of curiosity can someone who has seen the language of PML 2.0 explain what it states? The first PML was very specific with respect to what AC's obligations were to the Jazz pilots on the list. It appears as though the 80% ratio of Express/OTS no longer applies.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by skypirate88 »

TheStig wrote:The application window is expected to open 'soon'.

Just out of curiosity can someone who has seen the language of PML 2.0 explain what it states? The first PML was very specific with respect to what AC's obligations were to the Jazz pilots on the list. It appears as though the 80% ratio of Express/OTS no longer applies.
The language states AC will fill new hire classes with up to 80% from the Express carriers. I think what we are seeing right now is that AC is allowing the Express carriers a chance to breath and get caught up a little with their own staff levels. It will be a very fine line between balancing the needs of AC and having enough staff at Express for them to meet their CPA obligations.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by TheStig »

skypirate88 wrote: The language states AC will fill new hire classes with up to 80% from the Express carriers. I think what we are seeing right now is that AC is allowing the Express carriers a chance to breath and get caught up a little with their own staff levels. It will be a very fine line between balancing the needs of AC and having enough staff at Express for them to meet their CPA obligations.
I agree the first PML must have put a huge strain on Jazz to replace the pilots who left. I hate to be the skeptic here, but would you agree that there is really no such thing as PML 2.0? To the extent that being at an Express carrier offers no inside track to AC. Even including the pilots who have deferred AC is now hiring primarily from outside the Express pilot group again and has only committed to offering Express pilots the chance of an interview.

Given the size of the pilot pool at Jazz/GGN/SR looking to come to AC compared to Sunwing, Transat and WJ/WJe, it would seem that if anything the Express pilots are less likely to successfully join AC, much like in the 2005-2008 hiring period. The rules of the game seem to have changed again in between periods.
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by infiniteregulus »

Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is audacious!
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Re: Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

Post by yyctwin »

infiniteregulus wrote:Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is
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Last edited by yyctwin on Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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