Upgrade times and pay.

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Victory
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#26 Post by Victory » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Could you explain how your initial position is determined? Do you submit a list of positions ranked from what you want most to least? Then they try to give people what they want based on their seniority number? If you can't get what you want they give you the next thing on your list that is available?
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RVR6000
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#27 Post by RVR6000 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:22 am

Victory wrote:Could you explain how your initial position is determined? Do you submit a list of positions ranked from what you want most to least? Then they try to give people what they want based on their seniority number? If you can't get what you want they give you the next thing on your list that is available?
Exactly how you described it, you also put your base preference on where you want the position.
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Victory
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#28 Post by Victory » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:25 am

Ah, I see thanks. So if you care more about what type you are on instead of what base you are at can you ask, for example, for:
1: 767 YVR
2: 767 YYZ
3: 767 YWG
4: 767 YUL
5: 767 Rouge YVR
6: 767 Rouge YYZ
etc?

Also, are all positions available at all bases? Like could you be a 777 RP in Winnipeg for example?
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altiplano
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#29 Post by altiplano » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:42 am

Victory wrote:
altiplano wrote: WB FO spots to new hires that used to be 10 years to get.
What WB FO spots are available to new hires? Do you mean at Rouge?
As RVR6000 said:
767 mainline and LCC are being offered in initial courses.

Junior YUL 330 FO is #3600... must have bid it right out of his initial course because he's not shown as qualified on any type yet...

787 in YYZ/YUL not far behind and those fleets are still growing too...

We don't have all our firm 787 orders yet and the 13x 787 option announcement is around the corner...
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#30 Post by altiplano » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:46 am

Victory wrote:Ah, I see thanks. So if you care more about what type you are on instead of what base you are at can you ask, for example, for:
1: 767 YVR
2: 767 YYZ
3: 767 YWG
4: 767 YUL
5: 767 Rouge YVR
6: 767 Rouge YYZ
etc?

Also, are all positions available at all bases? Like could you be a 777 RP in Winnipeg for example?
Not all types are at all bases.

YVR
320, 787, 777 / L767

YWG
320

YYZ
EMJ, 737, 320, 767, 787, 777 / L319, L767

YUL
737, 320, 330, 787 / L319, L767

I think I got them all there. . they change/move things sometimes too... pretty regularly in fact...
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Victory
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#31 Post by Victory » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:07 am

Ok thanks. Could you describe some of the advantages and disadvantages of going to a Rouge position?
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RVR6000
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#32 Post by RVR6000 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:12 am

Victory wrote:Ok thanks. Could you describe some of the advantages and disadvantages of going to a Rouge position?
This is a tough one, with this new TA I’m not sure what Rouge will evolve into with an increase in narrow body fleet. The pairing quality, days worked can all change (still restricted to 16 days and min 77.5 hours credit monthly). Rouge 320 has been enjoying productive Caribbean/domestic turns (out of YYZ/YUL) and the odd YDF, YQY layover until now. With an increased fleet they will likely use it for Caribbean turns out YWG, YHZ, YXE, YQR, YEG, YYC (similar to what Transat/Sunwing does in the winter) so you’ll see more multi-day pairings out of YYZ. DH’s are free on rouge, mainline they’re paid half credit.

No changes to Rouge 767, still restricted to 25 fins. Multi-day 3,4,5 day pairings to Europe and Africa (out of YUL), LAS, MCO and the odd carribean turns out of YYZ.


To answer your question, benifits as a junior pilot is that you avoid reserve and get socialized bidding. After the flat 4 years the pay is about 15-20% less on the right seat compare to a similiar mainline position.
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Last edited by RVR6000 on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Victory
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#33 Post by Victory » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:23 am

Thanks. If you go to Rouge initially how does it work if you later want to come over to Mainline?
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RVR6000
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#34 Post by RVR6000 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:28 am

Victory wrote:Thanks. If you go to Rouge initially how does it work if you later want to come over to Mainline?
You can bid mainline positions as your seniority dictates, AC puts position freezes as they wish for new hires. Lately they’ve been releasing the freeze such that you will be trained to your newly bid position within 12 months. I believe there is no CR used going between similiar Rouge and Mainline positions.
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rudder
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#35 Post by rudder » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:48 am

altiplano wrote:Straight seniority determines the position you can hold.

Junior EMJ Captain YYZ is about a year.

Junior 320 Captain is maybe 3 years.
Bottom 2% of positions are not really representative of required seniority as the gap between 2% and 5% might be 400 numbers. But there is no doubt that the rate of movement and upgrade opportunities is significant.

The younger new hires at AC will have an unprecedented career path and earnings.
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#36 Post by JBI » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:10 am

altiplano wrote:
Victory wrote:Ah, I see thanks. So if you care more about what type you are on instead of what base you are at can you ask, for example, for:
1: 767 YVR
2: 767 YYZ
3: 767 YWG
4: 767 YUL
5: 767 Rouge YVR
6: 767 Rouge YYZ
etc?

Also, are all positions available at all bases? Like could you be a 777 RP in Winnipeg for example?
Not all types are at all bases.

YVR
320, 787, 777 / L767

YWG
320

YYZ
EMJ, 737, 320, 767, 787, 777 / L319, L767

YUL
737, 320, 330, 787 / L319, L767

I think I got them all there. . they change/move things sometimes too... pretty regularly in fact...
One thing to add if it hasn't been mentioned, not all open positions are offered in each ground school course. For example, the most recent GS had an option of A320, 737 and EMJ. No RP positions were offered.

In the ground school you pick seniority numbers and then based on your seniority number within the class, you pick (or get get stuck with) the positions that are being offered. After your initial position you are 'frozen' on type for a certain amount of time. There are a number of ways to bid 'off' your first position, but as I understand it, it's not automatic that as soon as you can hold another position you get to bid off the aircraft.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#37 Post by infiniteregulus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 pm

Interesting no RPs
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RVR6000
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#38 Post by RVR6000 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:29 pm

infiniteregulus wrote:Interesting no RPs
However you do get a RP bid, worth to try it out within the 4 year flat pay to get a taste of WB overseas flying.
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CAL
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#39 Post by CAL » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:31 pm

is it possible that with the type of pay over the first 4 years guys are picking all RP positions in hopes of less commuting or a better lifestyle....maybe have more time to have another income source etc?
Lets hope they run out of PML and open up that posting
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#40 Post by RVR6000 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:15 pm

CAL wrote:is it possible that with the type of pay over the first 4 years guys are picking all RP positions in hopes of less commuting or a better lifestyle....maybe have more time to have another income source etc?
Lets hope they run out of PML and open up that posting
It all depends, if you’re looking to upgrade quick it’s easier to do right to left than going from RP to CA. Not that it hasn’t been done, but it makes things a lot easier when you’re familiar with the routes and the airplane.

Given the incidences in the last few years training standards are going up as well.
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#41 Post by ActionAxson » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:40 pm

JBI wrote:One thing to add if it hasn't been mentioned, not all open positions are offered in each ground school course. For example, the most recent GS had an option of A320, 737 and EMJ. No RP positions were offered.

In the ground school you pick seniority numbers and then based on your seniority number within the class, you pick (or get get stuck with) the positions that are being offered. After your initial position you are 'frozen' on type for a certain amount of time. There are a number of ways to bid 'off' your first position, but as I understand it, it's not automatic that as soon as you can hold another position you get to bid off the aircraft.
Interesting. So the 737 has already started being awarded to new hires? When are the first deliveries? Didn't realize it would go so junior. Any reason why?
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#42 Post by infiniteregulus » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:12 am

737 may go junior but what'll happen when the 320 guys move over, get bumped down every month?
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Sharklasers
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#43 Post by Sharklasers » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:09 am

Air Canada just signed a $500 million deal to maintain the airbus for 10 years and the emb for another 5 years. Some of those machines will probably be gone soon but I don't think they will be leaving in droves like you think. As long as we can put bums in seats and oil is fifty dollars a drum they will be around. Deal says work for 125 fins.

http://www.financial-news.co.uk/43625/2 ... -airframe/
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#44 Post by infiniteregulus » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:32 am

Who's gonna man said 737s? New hire DECs? Surely some folks will be transferring over with the coming equipment bid.
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#45 Post by Sharklasers » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:44 am

I don't doubt that some will be leaving the fleet, but a lot will stay. The 321s have lots of life left in them. the 20X's are still getting upgrades this year so I don't see them leaving soon either and logically you would think they would be first out of fleet.
Lots of upgradable pilots still on property. Nearly 400 jet and Q400 captains hired in the last 2 years will be upgradable over the next 12 months.
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#46 Post by TheStig » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:26 am

infiniteregulus wrote:Who's gonna man said 737s? New hire DECs? Surely some folks will be transferring over with the coming equipment bid.
Not sure what you mean with respect to transferring over?

There are now over 3700 seniority numbers at AC, the junior Captain positions on the A320 and 737 are around 2800. While everyone has there own personal career plans, there are no shortage of pilots already on at Air Canada who are interested in bidding for and qualified to be trained as 737 Captains. Anyone suggesting there maybe vacant Captains positions available isn't familiar with the equipment bidding process at AC.
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#47 Post by infiniteregulus » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:40 am

I totally worded that weirdly didn't I haha. That's exactly what I meant thanks.
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#48 Post by '97 Tercel » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:33 pm

So if a new hire went on course this fall and bid 737 - would they potentially have a bunch of time off before or after training because there's not many (if any?) of them on line?
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#49 Post by Sharklasers » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:09 pm

If I new hire wanted to fly narrowbody they should absolutely take the 737. Few on property pilots will bid it unless reduced off something else because they don't want to burn a unrestricted bid on a narrow FO position.
What this means is that 90% of the rapid growth will be below you and you will pretty much be hired senior.
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

#50 Post by rudder » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:30 pm

Sharklasers wrote:If I new hire wanted to fly narrowbody they should absolutely take the 737. Few on property pilots will bid it unless reduced off something else because they don't want to burn a unrestricted bid on a narrow FO position.
What this means is that 90% of the rapid growth will be below you and you will pretty much be hired senior.
Yes, but eventually 320 FO's will start to get reduced and will get their NB FO course right back.
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