Upgrade times and pay.

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ActionAxson
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by ActionAxson »

JBI wrote:One thing to add if it hasn't been mentioned, not all open positions are offered in each ground school course. For example, the most recent GS had an option of A320, 737 and EMJ. No RP positions were offered.

In the ground school you pick seniority numbers and then based on your seniority number within the class, you pick (or get get stuck with) the positions that are being offered. After your initial position you are 'frozen' on type for a certain amount of time. There are a number of ways to bid 'off' your first position, but as I understand it, it's not automatic that as soon as you can hold another position you get to bid off the aircraft.
Interesting. So the 737 has already started being awarded to new hires? When are the first deliveries? Didn't realize it would go so junior. Any reason why?
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by infiniteregulus »

737 may go junior but what'll happen when the 320 guys move over, get bumped down every month?
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Sharklasers
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by Sharklasers »

Air Canada just signed a $500 million deal to maintain the airbus for 10 years and the emb for another 5 years. Some of those machines will probably be gone soon but I don't think they will be leaving in droves like you think. As long as we can put bums in seats and oil is fifty dollars a drum they will be around. Deal says work for 125 fins.

http://www.financial-news.co.uk/43625/2 ... -airframe/
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by infiniteregulus »

Who's gonna man said 737s? New hire DECs? Surely some folks will be transferring over with the coming equipment bid.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by Sharklasers »

I don't doubt that some will be leaving the fleet, but a lot will stay. The 321s have lots of life left in them. the 20X's are still getting upgrades this year so I don't see them leaving soon either and logically you would think they would be first out of fleet.
Lots of upgradable pilots still on property. Nearly 400 jet and Q400 captains hired in the last 2 years will be upgradable over the next 12 months.
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TheStig
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by TheStig »

infiniteregulus wrote:Who's gonna man said 737s? New hire DECs? Surely some folks will be transferring over with the coming equipment bid.
Not sure what you mean with respect to transferring over?

There are now over 3700 seniority numbers at AC, the junior Captain positions on the A320 and 737 are around 2800. While everyone has there own personal career plans, there are no shortage of pilots already on at Air Canada who are interested in bidding for and qualified to be trained as 737 Captains. Anyone suggesting there maybe vacant Captains positions available isn't familiar with the equipment bidding process at AC.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by infiniteregulus »

I totally worded that weirdly didn't I haha. That's exactly what I meant thanks.
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'97 Tercel
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by '97 Tercel »

So if a new hire went on course this fall and bid 737 - would they potentially have a bunch of time off before or after training because there's not many (if any?) of them on line?
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Sharklasers
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by Sharklasers »

If I new hire wanted to fly narrowbody they should absolutely take the 737. Few on property pilots will bid it unless reduced off something else because they don't want to burn a unrestricted bid on a narrow FO position.
What this means is that 90% of the rapid growth will be below you and you will pretty much be hired senior.
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rudder
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by rudder »

Sharklasers wrote:If I new hire wanted to fly narrowbody they should absolutely take the 737. Few on property pilots will bid it unless reduced off something else because they don't want to burn a unrestricted bid on a narrow FO position.
What this means is that 90% of the rapid growth will be below you and you will pretty much be hired senior.
Yes, but eventually 320 FO's will start to get reduced and will get their NB FO course right back.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by infiniteregulus »

Aren't there a bazillion open 320FO spots right now though?
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Sharklasers
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by Sharklasers »

With the scheduled growth and a lot of the Airbuses sticking around i don't think you will see any 320'FO reductions in YVR or YYZ. I think enough people will bid the left seat from that position to avoid them.
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mmm..bacon
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by mmm..bacon »

RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...

or am I out to lunch on this?
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pilotbzh
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by pilotbzh »

mmm..bacon wrote:
RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...

or am I out to lunch on this?
Nope, long haul flights are hard on you're sleep, looks good on paper.....
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Anticyclone
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by Anticyclone »

Any min PIC time required for upgrades or just seniority based??

Take good care.
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The Raven
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by The Raven »

mmm..bacon wrote:
RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...

or am I out to lunch on this?
Out to lunch? Nope. You're right on.

Having said that, when I was young it was not a problem. As I got older and closer to retirement I found the long-haul flying a lot more difficult to handle. I'm retired now and loving it, but I still have a few friends that are over 60 boasting that they are only flying 9 days a month. I don't think their days off are quality time. Too much of it is spent on recovery.
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sanjet
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by sanjet »

Anticyclone wrote:Any min PIC time required for upgrades or just seniority based??

Take good care.
Like all initial upgrades at AC, you must go through an evaluation process before being released as captain.

Having some actual PIC 705 experience will obviously help you practically speaking...
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RVR6000
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by RVR6000 »

mmm..bacon wrote:
RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...

or am I out to lunch on this?
You're not out to lunch, it helps if you can fall a sleep in the crew bunks. I believe you get 2 - 3 hour rest on a 14-15 hour flight.
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rudder
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by rudder »

If you add up waking up, driving to work, flight duty time, customs on arrival, transport to layover hotel (and all of that in reverse for the flight back) the 15 hour duty period will be closer to 20-22 hours of wake time before an opportunity to get R.E.M. sleep. Makes a non-augment 8 hour night flight to Europe look like a walk in the park.

6 times per month? Over 70 times per year? That will take its toll. Especially when the grey hair arrives.

The best part of AC is that pilots can pick their plane and therefore pick the style of flying that works for them individually. But you sure see a lot of puffy eyes leaving the terminals.....
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altiplano
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.

Post by altiplano »

I did the RP position for a while.

There can be some challenges on the long range stuff, but once (if) you get into a routine it's way better than all night Atlantic crossings with 2 guys or even transcon redeyes... and the 16-20 day schedules some guys here are working.

In fact I found a schedule of double augmented 3-day Asia pairings to be the best I ever felt of any of the positions I've done at AC. With 6-7 hours in the bunk you get a pretty good sleep in even on flights you are working the back side of the clock. Some guys have difficulty, but for the most part I could sleep reasonably well. Lots of time off for recovery and staying ahead of the stresses that build up when you're away...
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