Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

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Anticyclone
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Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#1 Post by Anticyclone » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:22 pm

Hey guys just wondering,

Do people go from Jazz to Sky Reg or vice versa if so any insight??

Be safe.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#2 Post by FL-280 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:23 pm

I have heard of a lot of GGN guys coming to Jazz, a few Sky coming over to Jazz.
But I have yet to know anyone going from Jazz to sky....

Always an exception somewhere I'm sure but that is my personal experience with this topic.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#3 Post by goleafsgo » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:40 am

What about Jazz to Encore? Or vice versa
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#4 Post by rudder » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:53 am

Several years ago there was a half dozen Jazz FO's that went to SKY as DEC on the 175. Most of them have since left SKY for AC.

SKY new-hire FO pay is higher than Jazz year 1/2/3/4 FO pay. Jazz left seat Dash 8 now going to pilots 12 months or less. CRJ Capt at 2 years. Not sure how long to left seat at SKY.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#5 Post by GATRKGA » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:18 am

All upgrades at sky have halted. Anyone who was being upgraded is back flying as a first officer now. They also hired direct entry captains this summer so this has caused quite a moral shift for those who were in the upgrade program for the last 6 months or so.

If given the choice between Jazz or Sky, you'd be better off at Jazz.

Better long term
Quicker upgrades
Transparent management practices
Union
And you don't have to give them a doctors note anytime you're sick more than 3 days or risk being placed on short term disability shortly thereafter.
Gaining seniority and improvement to life style every month you're there.

Majority of first officers I'm flying with are exercising other options and looking to leave. Any of us in the left seat seem to be too far invested into the Ac process to leave now so we are putting up with the bad morale.

Also a rumour is floating around the company that there's no expansion for the next two years. Several training captains that were involved with organizing the union, etc have been kicked out of the training department on the premise that there's reduced training at the moment, and that their help isn't needed.

Curious as to what's going to be discussed in the next union busting meeting... probably that anything they don't want to fix "will be looked into" ..

What I think Sky offers over Jazz is

Guaranteed jet
Slightly higher cash flow
The ability to work in chunks to get time off in chunks

Everything else I am of the belief that jazz is better for.

Just gives you some things to consider if you're ever choosing between sky or jazz.
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Last edited by GATRKGA on Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#6 Post by rudder » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:49 pm

Thx. Very informative.

FWIW, SKY has several routes that are likely to fall under the new ACPA RRA provision and meet the AC criteria of a 'leisure' route (YYZ-MSY/AUS/SAT). So no surprise that any growth will come to an abrupt halt particularly given the fact that it is AC that sources and leases all of the SKY fleet. This was a company proposal (RRA) and according to ACPA is the quickest way for AC to grow the Rouge operation so I would expect to see some aggressive moves on the part of AC as it pertains to substitutions on the current Express network.

Can you comment as to the level of interest at SKY in ALPA? And if the interest is there, what is the delay in getting cards signed?
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#7 Post by Anticyclone » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:08 pm

I appreciate it gentlemen and thanks for your time.

Take care.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#8 Post by Oxi » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Do they wear hats at Sky now?
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#9 Post by GATRKGA » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:32 pm

Oxi wrote:Do they wear hats at Sky now?
Yes
rudder wrote:FWIW, SKY has several routes that are likely to fall under the new ACPA RRA provision and meet the AC criteria of a 'leisure' route (YYZ-MSY/AUS/SAT). So no surprise that any growth will come to an abrupt halt particularly given the fact that it is AC that sources and leases all of the SKY fleet. This was a company proposal (RRA) and according to ACPA is the quickest way for AC to grow the Rouge operation so I would expect to see some aggressive moves on the part of AC as it pertains to substitutions on the current Express network.
That's my understanding of it as well. I wonder what the impact will be on Georgian, Sky, and the CRJ Flying for Jazz? A lot of the north south runs operated by all three express carriers are bound to be a point of interest for rouge. Or am I wrong about this rudder?
rudder wrote:Can you comment as to the level of interest at SKY in ALPA? And if the interest is there, what is the delay in getting cards signed?
The interest is definitely there. But fear of being held back for an upgrade or going to Ac keeps most of this young demographic silent for the ALPA vote.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#10 Post by rudder » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:16 am

Jazz has a CPA with AC out to Dec 2025 for a minimum of 96 aircraft including 21 CRJ705/900s. That is of course subject to change but would require CHR consent. I am not sure what the terms of the CPA deals with SKY and GGN are as they are not publicly disclosed. Given that AC controls all of the aircraft leases for those carriers, and that they are all used aircraft not subject to long term financing commitments such as the Jazz fleet, I doubt that AC has obligated itself in the longer term. Therefore, one can presume that any potential contraction in the combined Express fleet, particularly the jets, will be targeted where AC has the commercial and contractual flexibility to do so. AC asked ACPA for the ability to expand Rouge using the RRA provision and they got it. I do not expect AC to sit on their hands. As 737's arrive AC will have the ability to retain and deploy more NB Airbus in Rouge colours on RRA routes.

As for fear tactics, that is the oldest trick from the management playbook. Just like firing or disciplining union organizers. But with growth now likely off the table at SKY, upgrade times will increase unless a large swath of SKY CA receive job offers from AC. Hopefully the SKY pilots will look closely at having a voice at the table.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#11 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:00 am

I am seriously considering moving from Jazz to Sky Regional and I've had a few of my co-workers express the same intention, due to being locked on the same aircraft for 4 years. The way I see it, if I ever get PFOd from AC, which is a big chance, considering the competition (a lot of capable men and women,more educated than I am, out there), I will have nothing but a Dash 8 Type Rating...

An Embraer 175 type rating, will definitely open doors, especially overseas.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#12 Post by Anticyclone » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:47 am

HansDietrich wrote:I am seriously considering moving from Jazz to Sky Regional and I've had a few of my co-workers express the same intention, due to being locked on the same aircraft for 4 years. The way I see it, if I ever get PFOd from AC, which is a big chance, considering the competition (a lot of capable men and women,more educated than I am, out there), I will have nothing but a Dash 8 Type Rating...

An Embraer 175 type rating, will definitely open doors, especially overseas.

Same aircraft for 4 years!! people are saying upgrades for CRJ are 2-3 years and clearly you are out of the freeze ! oh unless you are out west maybe.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#13 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:57 am

Anticyclone wrote:
HansDietrich wrote:I am seriously considering moving from Jazz to Sky Regional and I've had a few of my co-workers express the same intention, due to being locked on the same aircraft for 4 years. The way I see it, if I ever get PFOd from AC, which is a big chance, considering the competition (a lot of capable men and women,more educated than I am, out there), I will have nothing but a Dash 8 Type Rating...

An Embraer 175 type rating, will definitely open doors, especially overseas.

Same aircraft for 4 years!! people are saying upgrades for CRJ are 2-3 years and clearly you are out of the freeze ! oh unless you are out west maybe.
So here's the issue. I think I'm one of the few people here that don't think anyone should go left seat on an aircraft they haven't flown before as an F/O (unless, of course they have a lot of experience on something similar). Should I go Left seat on the Q after 500 hrs on the Classic Dash? Nope. After 2000 hrs? Sure...

That's just me. Maybe I'm not as confident as other people.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#14 Post by Anticyclone » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:04 am

I definitely agree mate.. i would also consider SW or TS there you will have real chances of going overseas.

All the best.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#15 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:13 am

Anticyclone wrote:I definitely agree mate.. i would also consider SW or TS there you will have real chances of going overseas.

All the best.
Yup. That's an option, but honestly, I'd like to stay in the "AC family" (if that's even a thing)... I like the travel benefits. (and still have the option to go to AC)
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#16 Post by montado » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:37 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Anticyclone wrote:I definitely agree mate.. i would also consider SW or TS there you will have real chances of going overseas.

All the best.
Yup. That's an option, but honestly, I'd like to stay in the "AC family" (if that's even a thing)... I like the travel benefits. (and still have the option to go to AC)

I understand the sentiment, but the value of the travel perks will fade through your career. When we are young dumb and single they seem great. You cant sift through the maze of options on a C4 all the way you Asia if you wish.

Then life changes, you have a few kids, a wife (maybe in that order :lol: ) and now how often do you travel? You think you are going to get that family of 4 anywhere on a C4 other than Toronto to Timmins? Is it a holiday? good luck. Honestly travel perks are not really a huge reason to avoid SW or TS if you are thinking long term. But that just my opinion.

As for everything else can't explain how great Jazz has been to me. Would not skip to another express carrier myself, but maybe it takes a while to settle in an understand why. Personal experiences and the experiences I hear from colleagues show me that I am in the right place to make a great career. I hope Jazz has many more great years to come and that these new pilots coming in are willing to keep Jazz the way it has been. The high turnover to AC will for sure have an impact on the culture here.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#17 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:38 am

montado wrote:
HansDietrich wrote:
Anticyclone wrote:I definitely agree mate.. i would also consider SW or TS there you will have real chances of going overseas.

All the best.
Yup. That's an option, but honestly, I'd like to stay in the "AC family" (if that's even a thing)... I like the travel benefits. (and still have the option to go to AC)

I understand the sentiment, but the value of the travel perks will fade through your career. When we are young dumb and single they seem great. You cant sift through the maze of options on a C4 all the way you Asia if you wish.

Then life changes, you have a few kids, a wife (maybe in that order :lol: ) and now how often do you travel? You think you are going to get that family of 4 anywhere on a C4 other than Toronto to Timmins? Is it a holiday? good luck. Honestly travel perks are not really a huge reason to avoid SW or TS if you are thinking long term. But that just my opinion.

As for everything else can't explain how great Jazz has been to me. Would not skip to another express carrier myself, but maybe it takes a while to settle in an understand why. Personal experiences and the experiences I hear from colleagues show me that I am in the right place to make a great career. I hope Jazz has many more great years to come and that these new pilots coming in are willing to keep Jazz the way it has been. The high turnover to AC will for sure have an impact on the culture here.
Thanks for the reply. I do travel a lot with the family. Since I got my passes, we've been to Europe, South America, US and Korea. We have the time and financial means (not that I have anything to do with that) :D
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#18 Post by Oxi » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:10 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Anticyclone wrote:
HansDietrich wrote:I am seriously considering moving from Jazz to Sky Regional and I've had a few of my co-workers express the same intention, due to being locked on the same aircraft for 4 years. The way I see it, if I ever get PFOd from AC, which is a big chance, considering the competition (a lot of capable men and women,more educated than I am, out there), I will have nothing but a Dash 8 Type Rating...

An Embraer 175 type rating, will definitely open doors, especially overseas.

Same aircraft for 4 years!! people are saying upgrades for CRJ are 2-3 years and clearly you are out of the freeze ! oh unless you are out west maybe.
So here's the issue. I think I'm one of the few people here that don't think anyone should go left seat on an aircraft they haven't flown before as an F/O (unless, of course they have a lot of experience on something similar). Should I go Left seat on the Q after 500 hrs on the Classic Dash? Nope. After 2000 hrs? Sure...

That's just me. Maybe I'm not as confident as other people.
I cannot believe you are complaining about the flying you do and knew you would do when you applied to Jazz and now you don't want to upgrade? Why is 2000 hours flying a classic then going captain on a Q400 enough... why that number?

You should be confident and Jazz etc hires folks to eventually be captains, maybe you aren't cut out for it.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#19 Post by Anticyclone » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:24 pm

Meeting the requirement is one thing knowing your own limits is quite another..

There is nothing wrong by saying im not ready yet in fact it should be saluted.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#20 Post by Air.Field » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:28 pm

At every base the most junior captain is Classic Dash. The wait is around 1.5-2 yrs. So I don't know where the 4 yrs is coming from (you are not locked on an aircraft for an upgrade), nor if you're concerned about time on type why you would switch from the classic when again it goes junior for upgrades. Even still the Q and classic are very similar (common type), the differences aren't that hard to grasp quickly.
Going CA on a different aircraft is no different than going FO to one.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#21 Post by GATRKGA » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:33 pm

rudder wrote:Jazz has a CPA with AC out to Dec 2025 for a minimum of 96 aircraft including 21 CRJ705/900s. That is of course subject to change but would require CHR consent. I am not sure what the terms of the CPA deals with SKY and GGN are as they are not publicly disclosed. Given that AC controls all of the aircraft leases for those carriers, and that they are all used aircraft not subject to long term financing commitments such as the Jazz fleet, I doubt that AC has obligated itself in the longer term. Therefore, one can presume that any potential contraction in the combined Express fleet, particularly the jets, will be targeted where AC has the commercial and contractual flexibility to do so. AC asked ACPA for the ability to expand Rouge using the RRA provision and they got it. I do not expect AC to sit on their hands. As 737's arrive AC will have the ability to retain and deploy more NB Airbus in Rouge colours on RRA routes.

As for fear tactics, that is the oldest trick from the management playbook. Just like firing or disciplining union organizers. But with growth now likely off the table at SKY, upgrade times will increase unless a large swath of SKY CA receive job offers from AC. Hopefully the SKY pilots will look closely at having a voice at the table.
While an old trick, it works on a young mind. No body wants to fear missing out on an upgrade or AC so they all stay quiet. In essence though I agree with you rudder.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#22 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:54 pm

Oxi wrote:I cannot believe you are complaining about the flying you do and knew you would do when you applied to Jazz and now you don't want to upgrade? Why is 2000 hours flying a classic then going captain on a Q400 enough... why that number?

You should be confident and Jazz etc hires folks to eventually be captains, maybe you aren't cut out for it.
Maybe I'm not, but guess what, I sneaked by those "incompetent" evaluators. Of course, I'm not serious, but we all have a comfort limit and I don't think 500 hrs on a Classic Dash is enough experience to fly as a PIC on an RJ or even Q400. Why 2000 hrs? Because that's a pretty solid number where you can call yourself proficient. Let me say that again. You can have 2000 hrs on the Classic Dash and go left seat on the Q, but I still think going left seat on the RJ you MUST have some jet time experience.

Guess what? I think I'd be a much better RJ captain than a Q captain, because I have a lot of time on business jets.... I've flown them right before I joined Jazz... I had a hard time flying the Dash 8, getting used to a Turboprop and a "steam gauge" cockpit, after coming form high speed, glass cockpit business jets.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#23 Post by seriousflyer » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:12 pm

Why has all upgrades halted at Sky ? I am missing something, I just don't what. Please tell me.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#24 Post by Inverted2 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:06 pm

To each their own as far as comfort level but I've gone direct entry captain on the Dash classic and Q having never flown either and it's not that big of deal. Study the SOPs and study hard and it's no big deal. Training is top notch here.
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Re: Do people go from Jazz to Sky.

#25 Post by Oxi » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:46 pm

Inverted2 wrote:To each their own as far as comfort level but I've gone direct entry captain on the Dash classic and Q having never flown either and it's not that big of deal. Study the SOPs and study hard and it's no big deal. Training is top notch here.
agreed
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