Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

[infiniteregulus]

You've said the forbidden G word on avcanada. Now this thread is going to be deleted like all the other ones!

[HansDietrich]

Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.

You spelled 350K wrong. If you're heading overseas with 737 PIC time, you would be an idiot to fly for 150k. FO jobs overseas pay more than that. Hell, there's currently a posting for a 737 Direct entry captain job in China that only requires Dash8 Captain time and it pays about $285k CAD (net of all taxes). Compare that to 53% of your Canadian Captain salary going to fund Trudeau's hair products and Star Wars sock collection.

Yes, you can Swoop in and get some narrow body PIC time and then Swoop overseas to actually make a living.

Well, I was referring to F/O salaries. Never did I mention captain. At Emirates that's the average, with an upgrade of 6 - 7 years. F/Os in the ME and Asia can make over 150K a year. A captain, as you mentioned, makes well over that.

[Boreas]

You've said the forbidden G word on avcanada. Now this thread is going to be deleted like all the other ones!

+1

[JBI]

Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-

Interesting! From what I can tell, however, the job has to be based in a remote location in Australia:

Excludes positions that are not located in regional Australia – that is, positions located in: Sydney, Newcastle, Wollongong, Melbourne metropolitan area, Greater Brisbane area, or the Gold Coast.

I may be reading that wrong as I have not spent much time going over Australian Immigration regulations.

[x-wind]

rudder wrote:

"Tell me again why Asia and ME pays so highly for pilots and North America does not??[/quote]

Actually, the US does pay. Just check out he legacy rates effective in 2018. Without currency adjustment: 25-30% above Canada. With currency adjustment: closer to 40-50% higher.

The deficiency lies in Canada. Thanks in part to tilted arbitrations and abuse of power by the former Conservative government. And thanks in part to the inability of Canadian pilots to speak and act with one voice.

Perhaps things will change. Perhaps not."


Best post in thread so far.

[skybaron]

Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.

You spelled 350K wrong. If you're heading overseas with 737 PIC time, you would be an idiot to fly for 150k. FO jobs overseas pay more than that. Hell, there's currently a posting for a 737 Direct entry captain job in China that only requires Dash8 Captain time and it pays about $285k CAD (net of all taxes). Compare that to 53% of your Canadian Captain salary going to fund Trudeau's hair products and Star Wars sock collection.

Yes, you can Swoop in and get some narrow body PIC time and then Swoop overseas to actually make a living.

Though very true, it's the "go overseas and double your money" marketing scheme that helps attract people to work for lower WAWCON. Direct Entry Embraer jobs at Sky were filled quite nicely with people that bought the idea. Who can blame them? But, that was then, and this is now.

The growing shortage is global, and there should be zero need to suffer shitty conditions at cancer ULCC's just to provide yourselves with a lifestyle that you've earned and is long overdue. If you want to scratch an itch and work in another continent, so be it - but, you shouldn't have to.

To my friends at WJ - One pilot group to fly ALL machines in the Holdings company's fleet. By this time, we've all seen how fair and well B or C scale salaries and conditions work. Encore is in your mirror.

[BE20 Driver]

Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-

Interesting! From what I can tell, however, the job has to be based in a remote location in Australia:

Excludes positions that are not located in regional Australia – that is, positions located in: Sydney, Newcastle, Wollongong, Melbourne metropolitan area, Greater Brisbane area, or the Gold Coast.

I may be reading that wrong as I have not spent much time going over Australian Immigration regulations.

I haven't read it all ether. Just had it sent to me by a friend recently. From what you just posted, it doesn't exclude Perth which is a Qantas base. I've never been though so for all I know that could be the Regina of Australia.

[HansDietrich]

Though very true, it's the "go overseas and double your money" marketing scheme that helps attract people to work for lower WAWCON. Direct Entry Embraer jobs at Sky were filled quite nicely with people that bought the idea. Who can blame them? But, that was then, and this is now. The growing shortage is global, and there should be zero need to suffer shitty conditions at cancer ULCC's just provide yourselves with a lifestyle that you've earned and is long overdue. If you want to scratch an itch and work in another continent, so be it - but, you shouldn't have to.
To my friends at WJ - One pilot group to fly ALL machines in the Holdings company's fleet. By this time, we've all seen how fair and well B or C scale salaries and conditions work. Encore is in your mirror.

Yes, we shouldn't have to suffer shitty conditions at any cancer ULCC, but look at the salaries Jazz, Encore and Porter offer you to fly the Dash 8 and the Q (as an F/O)... It's not like you're leaving a Q400 job an Encore, making 80K a year as F/O to go fly a 737NG for 40K...

[Maritimer]

WJ management can target Encore pilots to fill the seats up front at Swoop all they want but they may be shocked at how little interest they get when they find out that if you leave WJ or Encore for Swoop and then try to come back you'll be at the bottom of the WJ list and starting all over again.

[goingnowherefast]

Isn't 65% of WJ pay even less than Encore pay? Somebody with recent numbers will have to verify.

If true, good luck getting Encore pilots to take a pay cut to fly a pink plane.

[mantogasrsrwy]

I have to laugh at the speculators talking out of their rear and trying to pass it off as fact. 65% of WJ pay? BOTL for Swoop? There has been no agreement reached between ALPA and WJ so at this point that's all BS. Of course Saretsky is going to throw out a low ball number at this point. Perhaps it's going to be 65% and BOTL but I doubt it. Regardless, don't get all worked up, wait till an agreement is reached, after all, now the WJ pilots have ALPA it's supposed to be all sunshine and rainbow farts right?

[altiplano]

What did the scope say from the pre-ALPA agreement? Either way I don't think they can just farm off your exact job to a wholly owned subsidiary.

The flying is yours.

I think the pilots have the leverage here. Swoop is already announced to start flying in 9 months without a deal in place. It will have to happen and the government isn't going to intervene and force you to accept anything.

Swoop will take from current Westjet flying.
Make no mistake. Canada is a SMALL market and there are only a handful of viable secondary airports/routes... we will see Swoop across your domestic network, US, Caribean, maybe even on the Atlantic... I have no doubt.

Don't forget the flying is yours, pilots have the leverage here, don't B-scale your job, your upgrade, your future colleagues...

2-tiers will result in a situation where they can whipsaw you against each other to everyone's loss...

Just look at AC/ACPA - mainline vs. rouge conditions, DB vs. DC/TBP pensions... Forced on us in 2012 and now we're trying to close the gap and paying big big big to do it, grossly overpaying in fact, giving up 75 years of negotiated gains and protections, on a period of record profits and company successes to the detriment of us all...

Good luck.

[Oscar]

Personally, in 5 years I see Woops becoming the next Rouge. Slowly absorbing aircraft, and taking over leisure routes from mainline WJ.

- Encore & Jazz serving the regional market with regional aircraft. (Q400, CRJ etc)
- Woops and Rouge serving the leisure travel market with narrow bodies. (737 / 319, etc)
- Westjet and Air Canada mainly focussing on the international wide body market, with a few narrow bodies for the business routes. (Max, 767, 787, etc)

[TheStig]

I'm looking forward to seeing what new ideas WJ will come up with. How they will code share between passengers connecting from WJ to Swoop, how their points system will be used, what markets will they target? ULCC's don't typically use rewards systems. In Canada carriers are required to include AIF, customs fees, security charges and taxes into their marketed prices, what additional ancillary revenues do they plan on adding a-la-carte?

I don't think we should confuse the leisure market with the ultra low cost market. Leisure passengers are those travelling for pleasure who are traveling for pleasure and are price sensitive. Ultra low cost passengers are those who might not even travel if it weren't for rock bottom prices.

I believe its safe to say this flying belongs to the ALPA represented WJ pilot group, seems like a pretty easy case to make in front of even the most right-leaning arbitrator. However, it is in the pilot groups best interest that this venture succeed. I can see this flying don't near the current rates while WJ pilots see raises closer to industry standards.

[skybaron]

Swoop will take from current Westjet flying.
Make no mistake. Canada is a SMALL market and there are only a handful of viable secondary airports/routes... we will see Swoop across your domestic network, US, Caribean, maybe even on the Atlantic... I have no doubt.

Don't forget the flying is yours, pilots have the leverage here, don't B-scale your job, your upgrade, your future colleagues...

2-tiers will result in a situation where they can whipsaw you against each other to everyone's loss...

Just look at AC/ACPA - mainline vs. rouge conditions, DB vs. DC/TBP pensions... Forced on us in 2012 and now we're trying to close the gap and paying big big big to do it, grossly overpaying in fact, giving up 75 years of negotiated gains and protections, on a period of record profits and company successes to the detriment of us all...

Good luck.

Well said.

[Eric Janson]

]Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-

Was discussing this with my Australian colleague a few days ago. The issue is that companies don't want to pay Type Rating costs to upgrade their citizens and are trying to hire rated people from outside the country.

The Unions are all over this.

There is no Pilot shortage in Australia.

[HansDietrich]

]Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-

Was discussing this with my Australian colleague a few days ago. The issue is that companies don't want to pay Type Rating costs to upgrade their citizens and are trying to hire rated people from outside the country.

The Unions are all over this.

There is no Pilot shortage in Australia.

Oh boy! I want to comment so much on this, but I best keep my mouth shut.

[altiplano]

There is a world wide shortage.

Australia might be late to the party...

[Spruce Moose]

65%? The last thing anyone at Encore wants to do is flow to a ULCC with FO wages bordering the poverty line and Capt wages no better than a TTC bus driver and prolong the 19 day a month misery, when all we hoped was to eventually flow to mainline with decent WAWCON. That's the whole point isn't it? That being said nothing has been put on the table so it's just speculation as of now. No one has a hard on to rush onto a 37 just because it's a jet if it means shooting ourselves in the foot, otherwise it would have all been for nothing in my opinion. We'll just have to wait and see for now.

[atphat]

I don’t think Encore pilots will have a say or choice in Swoop. ALPA or not. This will be decided by the WJ pilot group. It is their fleet and routes being canabalized.