Should I stay or should I go?

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Old fella
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#26 Post by Old fella » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:36 am

In my 67th year and having lived/worked all of it here in the home country of Canada, I am quite happy with the way it all went for me. Ups and down over the many years is all aspects- you bet. Personally speaking about living here being a 67 yr old Canadian citizen, I have a ton lot more to be thankful for than to be to be pissed off about. Just saying, that is all.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#27 Post by HansDietrich » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:29 am

Diadem wrote:I was in the military before I became a pilot, and it really irks me when people bash my country. What have you done to make Canada better? ... If you don't like the state of Canada and all you intend to do is complain about the way most of us think this country should be, then please leave, because we'd be better off without you.
All right, I've read your post very carefully and now I would like for you to read my post.

1. To answer what "we" did to make Canada better? How about risking my life every week for 6 years flying air ambulance, playing a small part in saving thousands of lives. That's what I did.

2. You were in the military? Congratulations. That is a career path you chose at that time. I have the same respect for soldiers as I do for paramedics, firemen, police officers and medical staff. Don't think that only military personnel serve the highest "moral ground" and you're there to offer the ultimate sacrifice to protect "Our true North Strong and Free". Our current military is there for our obligation to NATO and its allies. Believe me, if China or Russia ever came to attack us on our home soil, every able man and even women would be drafted into the armed forces, whether they like it or not. Who knows, some of us here may even be your superior. (PS. I also served in the military... just not in Canada... and not by choice)

3. As a Canadian citizen / tax payer, I have the right to criticize what I don't like. I also vote and that's how I try to change. You can't expect me to "just leave if you don't like"

4. We do pay 50% of our income to taxes. Nobody said INCOME TAX only, but when you add in Property tax, school tax, sales tax, blah blah blah, you end up paying 50% of your earnings to the tax man.

5. Do we need taxes? Yes! Should we pay tax? Yes. The problem we have is that our taxes are wasted on many programs / individuals that do not need to be.

Thank you for reading this.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#28 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:53 am

If you don't like the state of Canada and all you intend to do is complain about the way most of us think this country should be, then please leave, because we'd be better off without you.
You are so ignorant of the subject that your suggestion only confirms your ignorance.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#29 Post by Diadem » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:30 am

rookiepilot wrote:It isn't only the changes. It's the attitude that lazy government workers are "real hard working Canadians" and small business owners are "tax cheats". I've had it with that.
Has anyone in the government actually called you a "tax cheat"? Because I've only heard that from right-wing blowhards who want to turn this into a scandal. No one has said that business owners are breaking the law; on the contrary, they're taking full advantage of the law, and that allows them to pay substantially less tax than anyone who earns their income through wages. They want to change the law to end those unfair, but legal, practices. Why should you be able to distribute your income across your family and pay 15%, while I earn the same amount and pay 30? Why shouldn't I be able to sprinkle my wages to my wife and kids so that I can only pay 15%? Because I don't own a business? Because I'm not a "job creator"?
That's about where my loyalty is these days. It's frayed. I don't have to stay. Neither do thousands of other small business owners. "So then we are better off without you". Really? Pull the capital, and the job creators out of the country. Then where will the country be?
As for this trickle-down voodoonomics crap, you don't create jobs, you just facilitate them. Demand from consumers creates jobs, and you step in to supply the goods and services that they want. If you took all your capital and stomped out of the country in a huff, that demand would still exist, and someone would fill that opening. It doesn't matter how much capital you have, if you open a business that no one cares about then it won't last very long; you can hire 100 workers, but you haven't created any jobs, because they'll be laid off in a few months when your capital runs out. If there's money in it, and you don't want to do it, then someone else will. Individual business owners are not that important to the economy.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#30 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:44 am

Diadem,

You show a profound misunderstanding of economics. Let me enlighten:

First, I'm not personally affected by the tax changes.

My comments are broader. It's the rhetoric and tone of the government, that characterizes us as all tax cheats, while praising those in the liberal government with six figure salaries and million dollar pensions as "hard working Canadians" that is deeply offensive.

Second, if competitive business owners, and their capital, leave and close their businesses, if there is a legitimate demand, sure it may be filled, that's correct, in one of 2 ways:

A) By government, in a less efficient, more expensive manner, (and all taxes will go higher, for everyone, to make up for this)

B) Other business owners, but they will make it clear, only at a higher price to the end consumer, to make up for the tax changes. Otherwise, many business owners will retire. Many, do actually don't need to work anymore, and will not work for the government. Sorry.

Either way, both prices and taxes will go up further. Economic death spiral.

Business owners aren't important to the economy? What are you, a subscriber to statism?

What is this country coming too?

Try actually studying what happens to an economy when capital flees, then get back to me.

The answer is to cut costs on the massive and ever growing group of "Entitled" in this country.

But gosh we can't ever go after that group, can we? They're "Entitled"!
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#31 Post by altiplano » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:21 am

Cathay had DE FO openings recently.

They pay you a fat stack from day 1, pay a good chunk of your housing, pay most of your kids private schooling, and give you a fat bonus the day you join to help you settle in.

HKG is a great city, an international city, where you fit in and can speak English everywhere. Proximity to lots of great travel, a pretty good climate...

I think that's the best widely available expat deal out there if I was going to take my family somewhere.

Most other places you'll need the Jet PIC to make much cash... I wouldn't want to live mainland China or Korea or the ME anyway...

Vietnam was mentioned, I had a friend go there as a 320 FO and upgraded, loved it but ultimately came back when his LOA expired. I'm not sure if you can go there as an FO now or do an upgrade path...

I looked at LAN years back, tough to get on without family connection to Chile or an SA country... ultimately the pay is low too, but the low cost/high standard of living makes it relatively better...
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#32 Post by indieadventurer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:30 am

Cathay currently has a DE FO application up https://careers.cathaypacific.com/jobs/187640400

Saw this today as well http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/econ ... rt-ongoing
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#33 Post by BE20 Driver » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:17 pm

I saw that about the Cathay pilots. I honestly thought they lost the housing allowance long ago the last time the company had a bad run.

I honestly haven't looked into the cost of living over there. I know the housing allowance was a big influence for many people to go to Cathay in the past. I'm curious how affordable things are without it.

Vietnam seems to only take guys typed on the Airbus. At least that is what I've heard.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#34 Post by EPR » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:25 pm

When it comes to European/Asian carriers, why do they seem to think time on aircraft >45 tons really makes any difference?
Is it an insurance thing or what?
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#35 Post by BE20 Driver » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:57 pm

As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#36 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:07 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
Requirements for Expats may be set by the local CAA - the Airline may not have any say.

That is why you may see requirements for x hours on Type.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#37 Post by telex » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:26 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
Please report back when you have 500 hours in the left chair.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#38 Post by HansDietrich » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:30 am

telex wrote:
BE20 Driver wrote:As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
Please report back when you have 500 hours in the left chair.
He did say he has lots of PIC time, but not on Jets; so, if he was a Q400 Captain an Encore or ATR Captain at Calm Air for many years, then transitioned to jet F/O and flew right seat for some years, I'm sure his "Decision making skills" are not going to be that bad.... I'd say quite good.

PIC time is PIC time. I'm willing to argue that left seat at a 703 on a King Air, where you self dispatch and pretty much do your own flight planning is a lot more challenging than PIC at Encore on the Q where flight planning is done for you, etc etc.

Sure you can't be PIC on a King Air, then expect to go left seat 777. Different sets of skills / decision making, however once you're left seat on a heavy turboprop 705 machine, you can be left seat on a 737 (after some time in the right seat)

(It's too late / early to make sense...)
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#39 Post by Rockie » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:13 am

This kind of question the OP asked always results in the usual Canada bashing from the usual suspects. I don't know why it's even asked here given the predictable response, plus it's not exactly seeking opinions on the best vitamin supplement or running shoes...this is your life you're asking about here.

My suggestion to you is to not ask opinions but to find out relevant facts. Then determine what is best for you and your family if you have one now and in the future....and decide yourself.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#40 Post by Speedalive » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:29 am

indieadventurer wrote:Cathay currently has a DE FO application up https://careers.cathaypacific.com/jobs/187640400

Saw this today as well http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/econ ... rt-ongoing
Seems like Cathay pilots only want to come back to Canada..
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/ ... iring.html
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#41 Post by telex » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:39 am

Given your overseas experience how did you determine the relevant facts and what was best for you?
Rockie wrote:This kind of question the OP asked always results in the usual Canada bashing from the usual suspects. I don't know why it's even asked here given the predictable response, plus it's not exactly seeking opinions on the best vitamin supplement or running shoes...this is your life you're asking about here.

My suggestion to you is to not ask opinions but to find out relevant facts. Then determine what is best for you and your family if you have one now and in the future....and decide yourself.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#42 Post by Rockie » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:51 am

telex wrote:Given your overseas experience how did you determine the relevant facts and what was best for you?
Good question. My criteria was where do my family and I want to live, and where do we want to raise our kids. I fortunately had the opportunity to live outside Canada for a number of years and while I'm hardly a globetrotter like some it was enough to put what I love about this country in clearer focus for me and my family. We had lots of things to consider that I won't bore you with but money was not part of the equation for us. That is not a judgement on others who do want or need to consider it. Everyone has their own needs and preferences - ours are simple.

I did not ask others for their opinion when considering working overseas with the exception of my family who would be effected. That's not to say I didn't hear plenty of opinions anyway from people willing to share them whether I asked for it or not, it's just that they didn't factor into the decision. How could they?
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#43 Post by rudder » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:31 am

I have flown big planes and have been offered the opportunity to do so again several times. But as I am in the later stages of my flying career I decided to just sit tight, enjoy the view, and take advantage of the perq's of seniority. That is the upside of a long term employment relationship. Chasing metal is a younger mans game. And by younger I mean 45 or less and I am far removed from that category.

So now I look forward to Xmases and Thanksgivings and birthdays with my children and grandchildren not lost to a lack of control of my work schedule. When the clock runs out that is what I will remember, not time spent in an airplane. Having said that, for those closer to the start and trying to provide for their own families - choose wisely. This industry is replete with casualties such as insolvency, dislocation, and divorce.

One can only hope that the WAWCON in Canada for ALL levels of commercial aviation will start to reflect the costs incurred by the entrants and the lack of supply due to current WAWCON. There is the possibility of a better economic future but it will take the professional pilot community in Canada acting in concert to accelerate the pace of much needed change.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#44 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:41 am

rudder wrote:I have flown big planes and have been offered the opportunity to do so again several times. But as I am in the later stages of my flying career I decided to just sit tight, enjoy the view, and take advantage of the perq's of seniority. That is the upside of a long term employment relationship. Chasing metal is a younger mans game. And by younger I mean 45 or less and I am far removed from that category.

So now I look forward to Xmases and Thanksgivings and birthdays with my children and grandchildren not lost to a lack of control of my work schedule. When the clock runs out that is what I will remember, not time spent in an airplane. Having said that, for those closer to the start and trying to provide for their own families - choose wisely. This industry is replete with casualties such as insolvency, dislocation, and divorce.
A lot of wisdom here, for any career.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#45 Post by BE20 Driver » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:58 pm

I'm not so much as chasing metal as I am chasing pay and the lifestyle (earlier retirement) that can bring.

I don't have a hate on for Canada. It's an ok place to be. I do think a lot of our taxes get wasted here but I assume that politicians are the same the world over. I think other countries also do an ok job of providing services and we're not unique in having clean drinking water or good healthcare.

The intent of my original post was to cast a wide net. I'm looking at a few operators but I figured there might be some that I was leaving out. I'm doing my best to make a reasoned decision for me and my family. That requires combing through 2 pages of macro-economic theory, tax code and a lot of thread drift for what amounts to 2-3 actual suggestions. Ultimately, the decision rests with me and my family but since we're open to other places, I'd like to look at as many options as possible. Maybe out of all of them, Canada turns out to be the best. Maybe not.

If the WAWCON in Canada improved greatly, more people would consider staying. The gap is only widening between WS and AC and also the overseas carriers. I understand why the Cathay pilots are considering returning home. Many of the US carriers have improved their salary/compensation packages and that also has many Americans looking at coming home to work for a Legacy carrier there. I just can't see any Canadian carrier offering a 30% increase like Delta got. I am starting to think that our national identity isn't that we're nice friendly apologetic Canadians, it's that we're politely cheap. We don't want to pay extra for quality.

As for the PIC time, I think that when you act as commander of a King Air, 1900, Q400 etc. you develop critical thinking and decision making skills that stay with you. The basis of my previous argument is that combine those critical thinking skills and Command decision making with several years in the right seat of a 737 learning systems, ETOPS, international operations, it seems a little silly that you need to have 250-500 hours of PIC time on a 737. Really, that's only 3-6 months of experience in command of a jet. All of that time could be in clear and a million summer flying weather. It makes sense if that was your first command job but most Canadians will spend roughly 1/2 of their career in the left seat and have developed these skills already. Same idea with the 45 ton limit. Time on a Dash8-300 won't count but a Q400 will in most places. Silly line in the sand since you operate in the same airspace doing basically the same job.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#46 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:15 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:I'm not so much as chasing metal as I am chasing pay and the lifestyle (earlier retirement) that can bring.

I don't have a hate on for Canada. It's an ok place to be. I do think a lot of our taxes get wasted here but I assume that politicians are the same the world over. I think other countries also do an ok job of providing services and we're not unique in having clean drinking water or good healthcare.

The intent of my original post was to cast a wide net. I'm looking at a few operators but I figured there might be some that I was leaving out. I'm doing my best to make a reasoned decision for me and my family. That requires combing through 2 pages of macro-economic theory, tax code and a lot of thread drift for what amounts to 2-3 actual suggestions. Ultimately, the decision rests with me and my family but since we're open to other places, I'd like to look at as many options as possible. Maybe out of all of them, Canada turns out to be the best. Maybe not.

If the WAWCON in Canada improved greatly, more people would consider staying. The gap is only widening between WS and AC and also the overseas carriers. I understand why the Cathay pilots are considering returning home. Many of the US carriers have improved their salary/compensation packages and that also has many Americans looking at coming home to work for a Legacy carrier there. I just can't see any Canadian carrier offering a 30% increase like Delta got. I am starting to think that our national identity isn't that we're nice friendly apologetic Canadians, it's that we're politely cheap. We don't want to pay extra for quality.

As for the PIC time, I think that when you act as commander of a King Air, 1900, Q400 etc. you develop critical thinking and decision making skills that stay with you. The basis of my previous argument is that combine those critical thinking skills and Command decision making with several years in the right seat of a 737 learning systems, ETOPS, international operations, it seems a little silly that you need to have 250-500 hours of PIC time on a 737. Really, that's only 3-6 months of experience in command of a jet. All of that time could be in clear and a million summer flying weather. It makes sense if that was your first command job but most Canadians will spend roughly 1/2 of their career in the left seat and have developed these skills already. Same idea with the 45 ton limit. Time on a Dash8-300 won't count but a Q400 will in most places. Silly line in the sand since you operate in the same airspace doing basically the same job.
Let me be(slightly) more helpful. I have a lot of friends overseas, just not pilots.

If it was me, family is absolutely first. I'd visit, talk to people actually living in your country of interest, fully understand the lifestyle choices your family will accept. Schools, safety issues, health care, culture. It's a big decision once family is involved. It's not for everyone, either.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#47 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:48 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:I'm not so much as chasing metal as I am chasing pay and the lifestyle (earlier retirement) that can bring.
Just to add a little perspective.

If I had to find another job today I wouldn't know where to go.

There is nothing that jumps out at me as being a particularly desirable job. Every option available comes with a number of Negatives - I'd only go if there was no other option.

Another Airline has just gone under in the UK (Monarch). Along with Air Berlin there are going to be a large number of Pilots looking for work. Been there several times and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

My job is far from perfect - but it could be a lot worse.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#48 Post by BE20 Driver » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:03 pm

Who knows. Maybe things will dry up a little. Monarch is going under. Air Berlin also. Cathay is losing it's housing allowance. Between those three there could be a lot of experienced guys cherry picking the better deals out there. Maybe the decision will be made for me. Anecdotally, I've heard that more Americans are heading home than overseas, perhaps because of things like Delta's 30% raise etc.

That said, that DEC 737 job only offers 9 days off a month. Anyone with a ton of experience won't be interested in it until they get desperate.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#49 Post by justgiver » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:15 am

Individual business owners are not that important to the economy.


Well you know what, individual soldiers are not that important to the Military.

This is the problem with the Canada, people do not realize the value that business owners bring to the country. Not only that, but we never hear about the amount of businesses that fail. If we don't provide a fertile soil for entrepreneurs and employees a like what stops them from leaving this country? NOTHING

Diadem, try and start a business and try to take a salary from it for the first 5 years without bankrupting it. You want "respect" because you served your country, but you should respect the business owners who are also in the providing jobs and grinding it out. If a business ran at the efficiency level as any government service they would instantly implode.

The people who make these laws have never run a business in their life and have no idea how much work it takes. Wanna talk about being poor and working long hours? Be a pilot or try and start a business in this country.

The taxation for the amount of service is insanity in this country.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

#50 Post by HansDietrich » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:52 am

justgiver wrote:The taxation for the amount of service is insanity in this country.
Yup. Well said. Success is taxed here... The government (especially certain parties) think the people are an endless supply of cash.
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