Should I stay or should I go?

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DropTanks
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by DropTanks »

Sounds like you came up through Encore. Grab a Q400 contract floating around out there. Very lucrative as well from what my friends tell me. I think Spicejet has a new one out as well. How long you been at WJ mainline? Pay is so much better at yr 3. More than any Sky Regional captain.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by pilotbzh »

The grass is always greener on the other side, It's fertilized with bullshit....
I hate paying taxes, but it's what it cost to live here and that is worth it ...
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parallel60
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by parallel60 »

Diadem, well said. Thank you for your service and any member for that matter. I love Canada and I'm happy my Taxes go to this country and its treatment of humans. Until other countries change the way they rule they won't receive my services or tax money. There are many great countries out there but there are a few that I refuse to support(work for).
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by JBI »

As someone who is flying in Canada but living in a different country I have a few thoughts on this while trying to not get into political specifics.

I think it's fair to say that we enjoy a good quality of life in Canada - on par or better than most of the other G20 developed countries. Personally, there are a lot of quality of life issues that we and those countries have that I would want to give up (Access to clean water, personal safety when walking down the street, access to safe and hygienic health care, basic civil rights to not be arbitrarily imprisoned). Problem is, for most of those countries, there are not opportunities for foreign pilots and/or there are language barriers (i.e. sure flying for Swiss, Lufthansa or Air France would be amazing but that's not going to happen for Canadians in the near future.)

The remaining places that allow foreign pilots have a mixed bag of options. As you indicated, the 3 Middle East carriers offer some pretty decent salaries and living conditions, but the schedule has their challenges. Asia has some pretty awesome commuting contracts for Captains on wide bodies, but any of the NB work seems to pay less and be pretty relentless on the scheduling. Personally, I would rather get paid less and have my 12-15 days off a month in Canada than getting paid more and having 8 days off a month in China.

As much as the Swoop announcement and the complete lack of information from WJ about proposed wages and working conditions has frustrated many of the WJ/EN pilots, there still are at least 10 787s on the way. While the initial CBA may not be amazing, I do feel it is just a matter of time until the pilot shortage combined with the proliferation of ULCC airlines and wide body expansion reaches a tipping point. While all aviation industry predictions sadly depend on the state of the world and the US President's midnight bathroom tweets, I do think things are good and will keep getting better.

I've seen some of the more experienced (jaded ;) ) members on here in one post exclaim that "It's a race to the bottom" while in another proclaim that the new pilots are so "entitled". Thing is, as you also mentioned, the fact that these new pilots have amazing opportunities shows that on a broader spectrum, the industry is going somewhere I haven't seen in my 20 years in the industry. Right now it hasn't translated significantly into wages, but when the regionals are having trouble recruiting 1000 TT hour pilots, it's a good sign.

If regionals can't get pilots, I really can't see how many of the ULCC's will. What everyone seems to forget is that there are only a finite supply of pilots in Canada. These pilots come from different careers, many of which are already having a hard time to crew their aircraft. Even if pilots move to some of the new ULCC's, there are not 100s of 705 Captain ready pilots waiting in the wings to swoop in and take their spots. Do you think Sky or Jazz would risk losing a huge percentage of its Captains without at least trying to match the pay?

As a note, while I don't dispute that Canada does have high taxes, the Fraser Institute isn't the most reputable source for things like this. Their calculation method is somewhat flawed.

So at the end of the day, my opinion is that we're in a pretty awesome spot in with the industry in Canada at the moment. I think the pay off in medium to long term will outweigh the benefits of moving to a developing country.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by rookiepilot »

Diadem wrote:

Edit: I was going to move on, but I can't let this go. I was in the military before I became a pilot, and it really irks me when people bash my country. What have you done to make Canada better? Everyone in here seems to want to be given everything without contributing anything in return. Maybe taxes are higher than in most countries, but services are better too, and I think that's a small price to pay to live in a country where I don't have to bribe the police or worry about industry dumping toxic waste in my drinking water. The last election demonstrated that the majority of Canadians would prefer to live in a country where expenses are higher and consequently taxes are higher, rather than one where no programs are funded. If you don't like the state of Canada and all you intend to do is complain about the way most of us think this country should be, then please leave, because we'd be better off without you.
I'm not an airline pilot, nor have served in the military. And I thank you and all vets for their service-- I'm an unabashed supporter-----

But this post pisses me off in context with what's really happening out there, as a loyal Canadian, who has run a small business, paid a Lot of taxes, created jobs, supported the economy. So I can't let this pass, either, Diadem.

My country is now calling every small business owner, in effect, a tax cheat, and they believe we should not support good Canadian services, (what bullshit is that) but government gold plated pensions!

There are 123,000 government employees making over $100,000 per year! Gas plants. Bombardier loans. And what has bothered me as a long time, is they aren't considered overpaid. But a small business owner making 80- 100k is a fat cat. Someone explain that one to me.

Is this all cool with you, Diadem? I guess it's easier to point the finger at the small business owners, and say "hey they shouldn't be allowed to save for retirement" or "let them pay 55, 60, 70%" of their income (yes advisors to the government are pushing a 70% top rate)

It isn't only the changes. It's the attitude that lazy government workers are "real hard working Canadians" and small business owners are "tax cheats". I've had it with that.

What do I do to make Canada better? I volunteer. A whole lot. I give a lot of money to charity, and certain advisors want to take away tax credits for that, too. I contribute, a lot in every sense. And my government is crapping all over me. Why should the job creators stay, Diadem? Answer me that.

That's about where my loyalty is these days. It's frayed. I don't have to stay. Neither do thousands of other small business owners. "So then we are better off without you". Really? Pull the capital, and the job creators out of the country. Then where will the country be?

I've sacrificed a lot, risked a lot, given a lot back. I deserve to ensure security for my family, just like anyone here. So when you get pissed anyone is crapping on Canada, maybe my country's government should think about not crapping on its most productive citizens.

Sorry if this is too much drift. But read it and had to put this across. I don't like my government labelling me a crook. And I won't stand for it.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Old fella »

In my 67th year and having lived/worked all of it here in the home country of Canada, I am quite happy with the way it all went for me. Ups and down over the many years is all aspects- you bet. Personally speaking about living here being a 67 yr old Canadian citizen, I have a ton lot more to be thankful for than to be to be pissed off about. Just saying, that is all.
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Last edited by Old fella on Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by HansDietrich »

Diadem wrote:I was in the military before I became a pilot, and it really irks me when people bash my country. What have you done to make Canada better? ... If you don't like the state of Canada and all you intend to do is complain about the way most of us think this country should be, then please leave, because we'd be better off without you.
All right, I've read your post very carefully and now I would like for you to read my post.

1. To answer what "we" did to make Canada better? How about risking my life every week for 6 years flying air ambulance, playing a small part in saving thousands of lives. That's what I did.

2. You were in the military? Congratulations. That is a career path you chose at that time. I have the same respect for soldiers as I do for paramedics, firemen, police officers and medical staff. Don't think that only military personnel serve the highest "moral ground" and you're there to offer the ultimate sacrifice to protect "Our true North Strong and Free". Our current military is there for our obligation to NATO and its allies. Believe me, if China or Russia ever came to attack us on our home soil, every able man and even women would be drafted into the armed forces, whether they like it or not. Who knows, some of us here may even be your superior. (PS. I also served in the military... just not in Canada... and not by choice)

3. As a Canadian citizen / tax payer, I have the right to criticize what I don't like. I also vote and that's how I try to change. You can't expect me to "just leave if you don't like"

4. We do pay 50% of our income to taxes. Nobody said INCOME TAX only, but when you add in Property tax, school tax, sales tax, blah blah blah, you end up paying 50% of your earnings to the tax man.

5. Do we need taxes? Yes! Should we pay tax? Yes. The problem we have is that our taxes are wasted on many programs / individuals that do not need to be.

Thank you for reading this.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Cat Driver »

If you don't like the state of Canada and all you intend to do is complain about the way most of us think this country should be, then please leave, because we'd be better off without you.
You are so ignorant of the subject that your suggestion only confirms your ignorance.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Diadem »

rookiepilot wrote:It isn't only the changes. It's the attitude that lazy government workers are "real hard working Canadians" and small business owners are "tax cheats". I've had it with that.
Has anyone in the government actually called you a "tax cheat"? Because I've only heard that from right-wing blowhards who want to turn this into a scandal. No one has said that business owners are breaking the law; on the contrary, they're taking full advantage of the law, and that allows them to pay substantially less tax than anyone who earns their income through wages. They want to change the law to end those unfair, but legal, practices. Why should you be able to distribute your income across your family and pay 15%, while I earn the same amount and pay 30? Why shouldn't I be able to sprinkle my wages to my wife and kids so that I can only pay 15%? Because I don't own a business? Because I'm not a "job creator"?
That's about where my loyalty is these days. It's frayed. I don't have to stay. Neither do thousands of other small business owners. "So then we are better off without you". Really? Pull the capital, and the job creators out of the country. Then where will the country be?
As for this trickle-down voodoonomics crap, you don't create jobs, you just facilitate them. Demand from consumers creates jobs, and you step in to supply the goods and services that they want. If you took all your capital and stomped out of the country in a huff, that demand would still exist, and someone would fill that opening. It doesn't matter how much capital you have, if you open a business that no one cares about then it won't last very long; you can hire 100 workers, but you haven't created any jobs, because they'll be laid off in a few months when your capital runs out. If there's money in it, and you don't want to do it, then someone else will. Individual business owners are not that important to the economy.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by rookiepilot »

Diadem,

You show a profound misunderstanding of economics. Let me enlighten:

First, I'm not personally affected by the tax changes.

My comments are broader. It's the rhetoric and tone of the government, that characterizes us as all tax cheats, while praising those in the liberal government with six figure salaries and million dollar pensions as "hard working Canadians" that is deeply offensive.

Second, if competitive business owners, and their capital, leave and close their businesses, if there is a legitimate demand, sure it may be filled, that's correct, in one of 2 ways:

A) By government, in a less efficient, more expensive manner, (and all taxes will go higher, for everyone, to make up for this)

B) Other business owners, but they will make it clear, only at a higher price to the end consumer, to make up for the tax changes. Otherwise, many business owners will retire. Many, do actually don't need to work anymore, and will not work for the government. Sorry.

Either way, both prices and taxes will go up further. Economic death spiral.

Business owners aren't important to the economy? What are you, a subscriber to statism?

What is this country coming too?

Try actually studying what happens to an economy when capital flees, then get back to me.

The answer is to cut costs on the massive and ever growing group of "Entitled" in this country.

But gosh we can't ever go after that group, can we? They're "Entitled"!
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by altiplano »

Cathay had DE FO openings recently.

They pay you a fat stack from day 1, pay a good chunk of your housing, pay most of your kids private schooling, and give you a fat bonus the day you join to help you settle in.

HKG is a great city, an international city, where you fit in and can speak English everywhere. Proximity to lots of great travel, a pretty good climate...

I think that's the best widely available expat deal out there if I was going to take my family somewhere.

Most other places you'll need the Jet PIC to make much cash... I wouldn't want to live mainland China or Korea or the ME anyway...

Vietnam was mentioned, I had a friend go there as a 320 FO and upgraded, loved it but ultimately came back when his LOA expired. I'm not sure if you can go there as an FO now or do an upgrade path...

I looked at LAN years back, tough to get on without family connection to Chile or an SA country... ultimately the pay is low too, but the low cost/high standard of living makes it relatively better...
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by indieadventurer »

Cathay currently has a DE FO application up https://careers.cathaypacific.com/jobs/187640400

Saw this today as well http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/econ ... rt-ongoing
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by BE20 Driver »

I saw that about the Cathay pilots. I honestly thought they lost the housing allowance long ago the last time the company had a bad run.

I honestly haven't looked into the cost of living over there. I know the housing allowance was a big influence for many people to go to Cathay in the past. I'm curious how affordable things are without it.

Vietnam seems to only take guys typed on the Airbus. At least that is what I've heard.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by EPR »

When it comes to European/Asian carriers, why do they seem to think time on aircraft >45 tons really makes any difference?
Is it an insurance thing or what?
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by BE20 Driver »

As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Eric Janson »

BE20 Driver wrote:As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
Requirements for Expats may be set by the local CAA - the Airline may not have any say.

That is why you may see requirements for x hours on Type.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by telex »

BE20 Driver wrote:As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
Please report back when you have 500 hours in the left chair.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by HansDietrich »

telex wrote:
BE20 Driver wrote:As a Canadian with lots of PIC time (but not on jets), it always made me wonder what I'd know with only 500 PIC on a jet that someone wouldn't know after 8 years in the right seat.
Please report back when you have 500 hours in the left chair.
He did say he has lots of PIC time, but not on Jets; so, if he was a Q400 Captain an Encore or ATR Captain at Calm Air for many years, then transitioned to jet F/O and flew right seat for some years, I'm sure his "Decision making skills" are not going to be that bad.... I'd say quite good.

PIC time is PIC time. I'm willing to argue that left seat at a 703 on a King Air, where you self dispatch and pretty much do your own flight planning is a lot more challenging than PIC at Encore on the Q where flight planning is done for you, etc etc.

Sure you can't be PIC on a King Air, then expect to go left seat 777. Different sets of skills / decision making, however once you're left seat on a heavy turboprop 705 machine, you can be left seat on a 737 (after some time in the right seat)

(It's too late / early to make sense...)
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Rockie »

This kind of question the OP asked always results in the usual Canada bashing from the usual suspects. I don't know why it's even asked here given the predictable response, plus it's not exactly seeking opinions on the best vitamin supplement or running shoes...this is your life you're asking about here.

My suggestion to you is to not ask opinions but to find out relevant facts. Then determine what is best for you and your family if you have one now and in the future....and decide yourself.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Speedalive »

indieadventurer wrote:Cathay currently has a DE FO application up https://careers.cathaypacific.com/jobs/187640400

Saw this today as well http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/econ ... rt-ongoing
Seems like Cathay pilots only want to come back to Canada..
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/ ... iring.html
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