Should I stay or should I go?

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telex
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by telex »

Given your overseas experience how did you determine the relevant facts and what was best for you?
Rockie wrote:This kind of question the OP asked always results in the usual Canada bashing from the usual suspects. I don't know why it's even asked here given the predictable response, plus it's not exactly seeking opinions on the best vitamin supplement or running shoes...this is your life you're asking about here.

My suggestion to you is to not ask opinions but to find out relevant facts. Then determine what is best for you and your family if you have one now and in the future....and decide yourself.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Rockie »

telex wrote:Given your overseas experience how did you determine the relevant facts and what was best for you?
Good question. My criteria was where do my family and I want to live, and where do we want to raise our kids. I fortunately had the opportunity to live outside Canada for a number of years and while I'm hardly a globetrotter like some it was enough to put what I love about this country in clearer focus for me and my family. We had lots of things to consider that I won't bore you with but money was not part of the equation for us. That is not a judgement on others who do want or need to consider it. Everyone has their own needs and preferences - ours are simple.

I did not ask others for their opinion when considering working overseas with the exception of my family who would be effected. That's not to say I didn't hear plenty of opinions anyway from people willing to share them whether I asked for it or not, it's just that they didn't factor into the decision. How could they?
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by rudder »

I have flown big planes and have been offered the opportunity to do so again several times. But as I am in the later stages of my flying career I decided to just sit tight, enjoy the view, and take advantage of the perq's of seniority. That is the upside of a long term employment relationship. Chasing metal is a younger mans game. And by younger I mean 45 or less and I am far removed from that category.

So now I look forward to Xmases and Thanksgivings and birthdays with my children and grandchildren not lost to a lack of control of my work schedule. When the clock runs out that is what I will remember, not time spent in an airplane. Having said that, for those closer to the start and trying to provide for their own families - choose wisely. This industry is replete with casualties such as insolvency, dislocation, and divorce.

One can only hope that the WAWCON in Canada for ALL levels of commercial aviation will start to reflect the costs incurred by the entrants and the lack of supply due to current WAWCON. There is the possibility of a better economic future but it will take the professional pilot community in Canada acting in concert to accelerate the pace of much needed change.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by rookiepilot »

rudder wrote:I have flown big planes and have been offered the opportunity to do so again several times. But as I am in the later stages of my flying career I decided to just sit tight, enjoy the view, and take advantage of the perq's of seniority. That is the upside of a long term employment relationship. Chasing metal is a younger mans game. And by younger I mean 45 or less and I am far removed from that category.

So now I look forward to Xmases and Thanksgivings and birthdays with my children and grandchildren not lost to a lack of control of my work schedule. When the clock runs out that is what I will remember, not time spent in an airplane. Having said that, for those closer to the start and trying to provide for their own families - choose wisely. This industry is replete with casualties such as insolvency, dislocation, and divorce.
A lot of wisdom here, for any career.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by BE20 Driver »

I'm not so much as chasing metal as I am chasing pay and the lifestyle (earlier retirement) that can bring.

I don't have a hate on for Canada. It's an ok place to be. I do think a lot of our taxes get wasted here but I assume that politicians are the same the world over. I think other countries also do an ok job of providing services and we're not unique in having clean drinking water or good healthcare.

The intent of my original post was to cast a wide net. I'm looking at a few operators but I figured there might be some that I was leaving out. I'm doing my best to make a reasoned decision for me and my family. That requires combing through 2 pages of macro-economic theory, tax code and a lot of thread drift for what amounts to 2-3 actual suggestions. Ultimately, the decision rests with me and my family but since we're open to other places, I'd like to look at as many options as possible. Maybe out of all of them, Canada turns out to be the best. Maybe not.

If the WAWCON in Canada improved greatly, more people would consider staying. The gap is only widening between WS and AC and also the overseas carriers. I understand why the Cathay pilots are considering returning home. Many of the US carriers have improved their salary/compensation packages and that also has many Americans looking at coming home to work for a Legacy carrier there. I just can't see any Canadian carrier offering a 30% increase like Delta got. I am starting to think that our national identity isn't that we're nice friendly apologetic Canadians, it's that we're politely cheap. We don't want to pay extra for quality.

As for the PIC time, I think that when you act as commander of a King Air, 1900, Q400 etc. you develop critical thinking and decision making skills that stay with you. The basis of my previous argument is that combine those critical thinking skills and Command decision making with several years in the right seat of a 737 learning systems, ETOPS, international operations, it seems a little silly that you need to have 250-500 hours of PIC time on a 737. Really, that's only 3-6 months of experience in command of a jet. All of that time could be in clear and a million summer flying weather. It makes sense if that was your first command job but most Canadians will spend roughly 1/2 of their career in the left seat and have developed these skills already. Same idea with the 45 ton limit. Time on a Dash8-300 won't count but a Q400 will in most places. Silly line in the sand since you operate in the same airspace doing basically the same job.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by rookiepilot »

BE20 Driver wrote:I'm not so much as chasing metal as I am chasing pay and the lifestyle (earlier retirement) that can bring.

I don't have a hate on for Canada. It's an ok place to be. I do think a lot of our taxes get wasted here but I assume that politicians are the same the world over. I think other countries also do an ok job of providing services and we're not unique in having clean drinking water or good healthcare.

The intent of my original post was to cast a wide net. I'm looking at a few operators but I figured there might be some that I was leaving out. I'm doing my best to make a reasoned decision for me and my family. That requires combing through 2 pages of macro-economic theory, tax code and a lot of thread drift for what amounts to 2-3 actual suggestions. Ultimately, the decision rests with me and my family but since we're open to other places, I'd like to look at as many options as possible. Maybe out of all of them, Canada turns out to be the best. Maybe not.

If the WAWCON in Canada improved greatly, more people would consider staying. The gap is only widening between WS and AC and also the overseas carriers. I understand why the Cathay pilots are considering returning home. Many of the US carriers have improved their salary/compensation packages and that also has many Americans looking at coming home to work for a Legacy carrier there. I just can't see any Canadian carrier offering a 30% increase like Delta got. I am starting to think that our national identity isn't that we're nice friendly apologetic Canadians, it's that we're politely cheap. We don't want to pay extra for quality.

As for the PIC time, I think that when you act as commander of a King Air, 1900, Q400 etc. you develop critical thinking and decision making skills that stay with you. The basis of my previous argument is that combine those critical thinking skills and Command decision making with several years in the right seat of a 737 learning systems, ETOPS, international operations, it seems a little silly that you need to have 250-500 hours of PIC time on a 737. Really, that's only 3-6 months of experience in command of a jet. All of that time could be in clear and a million summer flying weather. It makes sense if that was your first command job but most Canadians will spend roughly 1/2 of their career in the left seat and have developed these skills already. Same idea with the 45 ton limit. Time on a Dash8-300 won't count but a Q400 will in most places. Silly line in the sand since you operate in the same airspace doing basically the same job.
Let me be(slightly) more helpful. I have a lot of friends overseas, just not pilots.

If it was me, family is absolutely first. I'd visit, talk to people actually living in your country of interest, fully understand the lifestyle choices your family will accept. Schools, safety issues, health care, culture. It's a big decision once family is involved. It's not for everyone, either.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Eric Janson »

BE20 Driver wrote:I'm not so much as chasing metal as I am chasing pay and the lifestyle (earlier retirement) that can bring.
Just to add a little perspective.

If I had to find another job today I wouldn't know where to go.

There is nothing that jumps out at me as being a particularly desirable job. Every option available comes with a number of Negatives - I'd only go if there was no other option.

Another Airline has just gone under in the UK (Monarch). Along with Air Berlin there are going to be a large number of Pilots looking for work. Been there several times and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

My job is far from perfect - but it could be a lot worse.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by BE20 Driver »

Who knows. Maybe things will dry up a little. Monarch is going under. Air Berlin also. Cathay is losing it's housing allowance. Between those three there could be a lot of experienced guys cherry picking the better deals out there. Maybe the decision will be made for me. Anecdotally, I've heard that more Americans are heading home than overseas, perhaps because of things like Delta's 30% raise etc.

That said, that DEC 737 job only offers 9 days off a month. Anyone with a ton of experience won't be interested in it until they get desperate.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by justgiver »

Individual business owners are not that important to the economy.


Well you know what, individual soldiers are not that important to the Military.

This is the problem with the Canada, people do not realize the value that business owners bring to the country. Not only that, but we never hear about the amount of businesses that fail. If we don't provide a fertile soil for entrepreneurs and employees a like what stops them from leaving this country? NOTHING

Diadem, try and start a business and try to take a salary from it for the first 5 years without bankrupting it. You want "respect" because you served your country, but you should respect the business owners who are also in the providing jobs and grinding it out. If a business ran at the efficiency level as any government service they would instantly implode.

The people who make these laws have never run a business in their life and have no idea how much work it takes. Wanna talk about being poor and working long hours? Be a pilot or try and start a business in this country.

The taxation for the amount of service is insanity in this country.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by HansDietrich »

justgiver wrote:The taxation for the amount of service is insanity in this country.
Yup. Well said. Success is taxed here... The government (especially certain parties) think the people are an endless supply of cash.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by rookiepilot »

justgiver wrote:
Individual business owners are not that important to the economy.


This is the problem with the Canada, people do not realize the value that business owners bring to the country. Not only that, but we never hear about the amount of businesses that fail. If we don't provide a fertile soil for entrepreneurs and employees a like what stops them from leaving this country? NOTHING

The people who make these laws have never run a business in their life and have no idea how much work it takes. Wanna talk about being poor and working long hours? Be a pilot or try and start a business in this country.

The taxation for the amount of service is insanity in this country.
No. The message small business owners are clearly given -- I wrote my own MP here with this, and he didn't even have the respect to personally respond ---- is that we are all crooked tax cheats, ripping off Canada and not paying our "fair share". That's bullshit.

At the same time, we should happily give bombardier executives taxpayer paid, multi million dollar bonuses, for running their company into the ground, while shipping jobs overseas. Because hey, it's Quebec.

This is Justin Trudeaus Canada.

I'm serious questioning why I should stay in this country. I feel more affinity with the USA, who supports small businesses, than working in an increasingly socialist country that is determined to punish the productive job creators.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by '97 Tercel »

While I do want BBD to succeed I also have to agree that Quebec is a ridiculous charity case.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote:
I'm serious questioning why I should stay in this country. I feel more affinity with the USA, who supports small businesses, than working in an increasingly socialist country that is determined to punish the productive job creators.
I'm fairly sure that by the time you've paid for health insurance for yourself and all your employees there's not much in it.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Mercer summed it up best when he said that around the 2 year mark, every Canadian government gets cocky and thinks, 'Hey I can do what I want, they voted for me!', when really all we did was vote out the last guy.

Canada though is in far better shape than the 'abandoning ship' going on down south.

S.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Cat Driver »

I was fortunate to have made a good living as a pilot and can afford to go to the USA if I need an elective surgery so for me Canada is a good place to live.

Where we were born generally determines where we live because that is generally where our assets are.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by 7ECA »

rookiepilot wrote: The message small business owners are clearly given - is that we are all crooked tax cheats, ripping off Canada and not paying our "fair share". That's bullshit.

[snip]

I'm serious questioning why I should stay in this country. I feel more affinity with the USA, who supports small businesses, than working in an increasingly socialist country that is determined to punish the productive job creators.
Maybe you should stop reading the National Post/Globe and Mail/Fraser Institute drivel then? :roll:

http://pressprogress.ca/new_fraser_inst ... _on_taxes/

http://pressprogress.ca/will_2017_be_th ... y_gimmick/
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by sstaurus »

Cat Driver wrote:Where we were born generally determines where we live because that is generally where our assets are.
Indeed Canada also gave everyone here the opportunity to succeed... one might decide to abandon ship now but don't forget how lucky you still are for where you were born. (not speaking directly at Cat just in general)
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by av8ts »

FOD wrote:No question about it. If you can, leave, run as fast as you can. It's only a question of risk/reward. Step out of the comfort zone and go make some real money. Cut your ties to Canada completely and park your money in a more tax friendly jurisdiction. You'll come to appreciate that all is not well in what Canada has become, and most importantly, the direction it's going. Be smart, frugal, save every penny tax efficiently and then you can chose anywhere in the WORLD to live, not just the People's Republic of Canuckistan.

I left. it was a hard decision to make, but so far, best decision ever. There are many families here and they all are adapting well. Like any good commander, make a well thought out and informed decision.

Or stay behind and continue to contribute to this broken none-sense while you are nickel and dimed to death for diminishing returns and stay perpetually in-debted to the banks.

Being successful in Canada is just not worth it.

FOD.
Sorry but your wrong. I’ve traveled the world and Canada is an amazing country. I feel very lucky to enjoy the great life that I have here
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by Cat Driver »

FOD has it figured out.

If I were younger I would be gone in a heart beat.
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Re: Should I stay or should I go?

Post by rookiepilot »

There is much to be thankful for, the freedoms and privilege of being born and living in Canada. I've been to 40 + countries, have friends in many of those, and most would agree it's difficult to top Canada in many respects.

We do seem to be going in the wrong direction and that is discouraging. Our freedoms are diminishing as political correctness rules, and the only voices allowed are the "correct" voices.

Our best friends are the Americans, we have to thank them for a lot, our safety and security and largest trading partner, yet Canadians have been conditioned to hate them. This isn't good, we need them as our friends.

Canadians have also been conditioned to see anyone succeeding in business as either a crook or exploitive, you read that often on forums here. And this mentality is actively encouraged by our government. Therefore kids in school are taught that working for the government is a higher calling than creating a business.

That is all sad in my view, and not what leads to a strong independent nation.
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