Boeing studies pilotless airplane

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confusedalot
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by confusedalot »

ragbagflyer wrote:
Rockie wrote: No, we're the strongest link because a brain is still required during normal ops to tie everything together and make intelligent decisions encompassing more than rote responses. During abnormal ops 100X so.
Even with current technology levels I'd probably rather send my family on the computer driven airliner over the q400 piloted by two millennials; the captain who just upgraded to his first PIC job (!!!!), and the FO who was up really late and barely slept because his tinder date from the previous night went went really well.
The Boeing people are self admittedly not completely there yet. They said that AI is the way to go, and they also said that they have no idea, yet, about how they are going to implement all of this. Read the reports carefully. It is a work in progress and a study. Making a plane do some circuits at an out of the way place with a couple of engine failures is one thing, making them operate in the airspace with a whole lot of traffic and storms, is quite another.

Pilotless airplanes will probably happen, someday. After self cleaning houses and apartments, and electric self driving cars (for everyone, not just the test vehicles), and self built buildings, and self done landscaping.

Long long way to go.
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Prodriver »

I can see the co-pilot being removed and sitting in an office looking after 4 to 6 flights, would probably be a better resource on the GND, as he would have better support. Once we get to the pilot being removed, another crew member like the Head cabin attendant can be trained to supervise the taxi/positioning of the AC on the runway. Then control would be transferred to the remote pilots. Just a matter of time IMHO.

I think the hold up will be reliable data transfer, but once these guys are up, it will be pretty cool!

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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by timel »

Prodriver wrote:
I think the hold up will be reliable data transfer, but once these guys are up, it will be pretty cool!
Reliable data transfer..., to me it is completely non sense to allow remote control of airplanes. NSA, FBI, CIA They all got hacked. No software system is completely fail proof from hacking.
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by av8ts »

Military drones have a high loss rate, and not due to enemy fire either. Won't see pilotless commercial passenger flights during my career. Boeing is just talking about it now. That's a long way from a plane on the tarmac
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by ahramin »

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40860911
A survey by financial services firm UBS suggests that pilotless aircraft not be too popular, however, with 54% of the 8,000 people questioned saying they would be unlikely to take a pilotless flight. The older age groups were the most resistant with more than half of people aged 45 and above shunning the idea.
Self reported data is almost worthless. When that same 45 year old is faced with a $40 price difference they'll skip the pilots, especially once pilotless planes have been flying a year or two.
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by totalflyer »

Rockie wrote: People who tout automation as taking over from the pilot probably don't fly an automated airplane. If they did they would know how quickly automation can switch from being an aid to a hindrance.
Can't agree with you more...
I don't know how many times I have kicked the AP off just to hand fly the aircraft because it was easier to get it to do what I wanted it to or the automation doesn't capture the Localizer or glideslope for example. I don't fly an overly sophisticated aircraft but it has an FMS, Flight Director, Basic EFIS, Autopilot and Yaw Damper. Automation is great but sometimes you just have to do it yourself and hand fly it
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Diadem »

totalflyer wrote:Automation is great but sometimes you just have to do it yourself and hand fly it
Then how do big airliners fly on autopilot from take off through landing every day with no issues? Automation on new aircraft is miles ahead of what it was even twenty years ago, and there are no technological reasons we couldn't have fully autonomous aircraft already. If planes were able to directly communicate, they could arrange flights much more efficiently than if they had to go through an ATC middleman; they could go directly to their destinations without needing to fly specific routings or STARs, and they could adjust their speeds en route to arrive at a precise time relative to the other inbound aircraft, without needing the margin of error used by controllers because of the preciseness of the computer calculations. Spacing would be the absolute minimum required with no buffer needed to be built in. Fog would be irrelevant because autopilots don't need any visibility for take off or landing.
It's uncomfortable to think about as pilots, because it means the end of our profession, especially if you have children or grandchildren just getting into the industry, but it's only a matter of time. Anyone who ignores the value of automation in both increasing safety and reducing costs is being illogical and burying their head in the sand; there may be some luddites who will never accept it, but the public is increasingly accepting towards things like self-driving cars, and eventually they will be fine with pilot-less aircraft. Pretending it isn't going to happen will result in a mighty shock in the future, especially if you find yourself suddenly replaced by a robot.
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by av8ts »

The only way it will happen in my life is with a pilot on the ground looking at the instruments/cameras and ready to take over. ...Taxiing on snow covered taxiways....Turbulent clouds not seen on radar....Major failures (Hudson river, Sioux Falls) that automation can't handle. I'm sure the list goes on
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Rockie »

Diadem wrote:Then how do big airliners fly on autopilot from take off through landing every day with no issues?


There are different levels of automation and all of them are used in the course of any flight, right down to no automation. It's a common misconception that the automation flies the airplane - it doesn't. The pilot flies the airplane and the automation is one of the tools he/she uses to do that. Automation isn't a brain, it doesn't think and it isn't smart. It does what the pilot tells it to do, except when it doesn't and then guess what?
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by garfield »

Maybe in 50 years, but we will all be retired by then.
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by valleyboy »

From my scan of the thread and I might of missed it but no one is mentioning the one basic flaw. How do you integrate advanced technology with, by that time 100 year old technology. Aviation is not all about dream liners and heavy metal. The majority of aircraft around will be still out dated by then. The infrastructure for ATC will cost much more and will need to be over hauled. It will likely mean 2 systems and services. There are also advances in other technologies and ground transportation could very well replace what we call commuter aircraft today up to stage lengths of transcontinental. The way of the future will to reduce air traffic, saturation of airspace will force this and we will going into low orbit transcontinental flights to ground hubs for distribution on high speed with such things as hyperloop trains.

Aircraft with no flight crew on board in the grand scheme of things is a logical and simple step(US military have been doing it but have lost some metal) but it's not as we perceive. Air travel will likely increase with far less aircraft and short haul air service, as I said, will be replaced with ground transport. Lets face it heavy aircraft are not "green" and the movement to replace them with something will always be there and research to develop alternate fuels and propulsion systems are needed. Having said all this I'm sure guys just starting will be able to retire before we see all these changes.
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Prodriver »

I see one pilot in the aircraft and a co-pilot on the ground with the ability to lock out the pilot and auto land if required. He would be a pretty handy resource in the event of a problem. Once the infrastructure in 2027 is built out for data transmition and communication, look out!

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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Prodriver »

Once there is the ability to have global data, we are going to see one pilot and the co-pilot on the ground working multiple flights with the ability to override the one pilot and auto land in the event of an emergency or unscheduled event. He would be a handy resource and he would still be talking in your headset.

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Look at the investors Airbus and Virgin.
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Meatservo »

I doubt it. The only case to be made in favour of that is money. There is no safety case that favours a pilot on the ground above a pilot in the plane. Especially if the guy on the ground is the one with the “override” capability. You could cite the circumstances of the German Wings event as a possible case for a ground-based guy, if you willfullly ignore the equally real possibility of the guy on the ground with a kill-switch on multiple flights being the one who is deranged.

Possibly the one-man cockpit may come to pass, but I will be interested to hear the sophistry that emerges to explain why one crewman is safer than two. Many countries have banned one-man bridge operations in home waters for shipping. I expect we’ll see the same thing for aviation. Likewise, maybe we’ll see aircraft being controlled by a ground-based drone operator, but I think it will only be when the planes no longer have flight-decks at all. Any safety-based justification for a one-man cockpit which can be overruled from the ground is equally valid for a completely pilotless one.

And, like I said, what a shitty job for the one pilot!
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by North Shore »

Prodriver wrote:I see one pilot in the aircraft and a co-pilot on the ground with the ability to lock out the pilot and auto land if required. He would be a pretty handy resource in the event of a problem. Once the infrastructure in 2027 is built out for data transmition and communication, look out!

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2027 - I'll be 61 then (Holy F@ck - how did that happen so fast?!), so not much of a worry. Beyond that, there will always be a market for people who didn't rush off to OneBigAirline, took the time to develop a wide aviation skillset, and can fly floats/wheels/skiis off-strip in the barrens, on floats into logging/fishing/mining camps, or rotary into Alpine lodges, and remote drill sites...
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Prodriver »

Meatservo wrote:I doubt it. The only case to be made in favour of that is money. There is no safety case that favours a pilot on the ground above a pilot in the plane. Especially if the guy on the ground is the one with the “override” capability. You could cite the circumstances of the German Wings event as a possible case for a ground-based guy, if you willfullly ignore the equally real possibility of the guy on the ground with a kill-switch on multiple flights being the one who is deranged.

Possibly the one-man cockpit may come to pass, but I will be interested to hear the sophistry that emerges to explain why one crewman is safer than two. Many countries have banned one-man bridge operations in home waters for shipping. I expect we’ll see the same thing for aviation. Likewise, maybe we’ll see aircraft being controlled by a ground-based drone operator, but I think it will only be when the planes no longer have flight-decks at all. Any safety-based justification for a one-man cockpit which can be overruled from the ground is equally valid for a completely pilotless one.

And, like I said, what a shitty job for the one pilot!

Ya, you would lose your wingman for Bar adventures!
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Meatservo »

Prodriver wrote:
Meatservo wrote:I doubt it. The only case to be made in favour of that is money. There is no safety case that favours a pilot on the ground above a pilot in the plane. Especially if the guy on the ground is the one with the “override” capability. You could cite the circumstances of the German Wings event as a possible case for a ground-based guy, if you willfullly ignore the equally real possibility of the guy on the ground with a kill-switch on multiple flights being the one who is deranged.

Possibly the one-man cockpit may come to pass, but I will be interested to hear the sophistry that emerges to explain why one crewman is safer than two. Many countries have banned one-man bridge operations in home waters for shipping. I expect we’ll see the same thing for aviation. Likewise, maybe we’ll see aircraft being controlled by a ground-based drone operator, but I think it will only be when the planes no longer have flight-decks at all. Any safety-based justification for a one-man cockpit which can be overruled from the ground is equally valid for a completely pilotless one.

And, like I said, what a shitty job for the one pilot!

Ya, you would lose your wingman for Bar adventures!
“Ya”, and for “avoiding accidents” too! But whatever...
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Meatservo »

Prodriver wrote:
Meatservo wrote:I doubt it. The only case to be made in favour of that is money. There is no safety case that favours a pilot on the ground above a pilot in the plane. Especially if the guy on the ground is the one with the “override” capability. You could cite the circumstances of the German Wings event as a possible case for a ground-based guy, if you willfullly ignore the equally real possibility of the guy on the ground with a kill-switch on multiple flights being the one who is deranged.

Possibly the one-man cockpit may come to pass, but I will be interested to hear the sophistry that emerges to explain why one crewman is safer than two. Many countries have banned one-man bridge operations in home waters for shipping. I expect we’ll see the same thing for aviation. Likewise, maybe we’ll see aircraft being controlled by a ground-based drone operator, but I think it will only be when the planes no longer have flight-decks at all. Any safety-based justification for a one-man cockpit which can be overruled from the ground is equally valid for a completely pilotless one.

And, like I said, what a shitty job for the one pilot!

Ya, you would lose your wingman for Bar adventures!
“Ya”, and for “avoiding accidents” too! But whatever...
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by pelmet »

Looks like the fight is starting....

"Action Needed: Tell Congress No Single-Pilot Aircraft
The House of Representatives is expected to vote on the long-awaited Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) reauthorization bill in the next week. The bill, in its current form, is largely pilot-partisan, except for one provision. Section 744 of the proposed bill directs the FAA to conduct a study on reducing crew complement to one captain and a remote first officer for all-cargo operations. Join us in telling Congress "no" to this measure that would jeopardize the safety of all who depend on air transportation.
As pilots, we are trained for life to operate an aircraft in a dynamic environment. Our responsibility for the safety of the flight constantly changes and includes duties such as interacting with air traffic control; communicating with dispatch; checking current and future weather; visually scanning for other aircraft; and monitoring engines, fuel, and other systems. Even in non-routine situations, the workload on the flight deck can increase rapidly and in a short time period. Maintaining safety for airline crews, passengers, and individuals on the ground requires at least two well trained, fully qualified, and adequately rested pilots in the cockpit.
Additionally, it is often necessary to communicate with multiple entities on the ground as situations arise. For example, in case of an aircraft emergency, crews may need to be in constant contact with air traffic control, the fire department, dispatch, and other emergency response teams. It is essential to communicate in real time and without delay or the potential for a lost connection.
ALPA members may understand the safety risk from a reduced crew complement on all-cargo flights, but Congress won't know unless they hear from us. Join our union today in calling on Congress to uphold our safety standards and keep two well trained pilots in all of our Part 121 aircraft.
Your engagement is important because the bill, as introduced, supports many significant ALPA priorities. It protects first officer training and qualifications, requires secondary barriers on new passenger aircraft, includes H.R. 2150 (Flags of Convenience Don't Fly Here Act), mandates automatic acceptance of voluntarily reported safety information, authorizes the Human Intervention Motivation Study Program, harmonizes lithium battery rules with international standards, and authorizes the Essential Air Service program and Pacific Island reliever airports."
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Re: Boeing studies pilotless airplane

Post by Boreas »

Hope that the guys/gals south of the border get on this. Don't think they'd care too much about hearing Canadians out...
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