Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

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Dangerous Goods
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Dangerous Goods »

So let me get this straight. Selling out 1900 pilots by devaluing current 737 WAWCON and creating another layer for Encore pilots to flow through is your vision of uniting a pilot group!? All in the name of creating a career opportunity for 100 pilots?! Brilliant!! Absolutely brilliant!!

You guys are too ridiculous to listen to. Like I said - thank god you're the minority.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by BE20 Driver »

Dangerous Goods wrote:Canadian? Air Canada? OG Westjet pilots? Oh boy, now you're digging deep. Come on man, THAT has nothing to do with this,
It has everything to do with this. It is a somewhat fair comparison to use the original westjetters here. They saw an opportunity even when the salary wasn't industry leading and found some value in what was being offered. Same thing at Rouge. They are an airline within an airline; flying old equipment on a B-scale. I don't work for AC but I'll guarantee the same convo happened when Rouge was imposed on the pilots. "Don't go. You're lowering the bar and we will kick you off the list. Let's shut this down before it starts by preventing anyone from going to it." Fortunately cooler heads prevailed and ACPA has been working ever since to close the gap. They are still paid a lower wage than mainline for the same flying. Pilots at AC/Rouge get to choose between a lower pay, socialized bidding less overnights and have the ability to move between companies. Everyone chooses what fits their family life. What would have happened if Rouge had launched with a separate list? I imagine a lot of whipsawing and a bitter divided workforce. Something like what happened when the RJ's went to Jazz or when Sky regional got some EMB's instead of that flying going to Jazz. Every time this happens everyone screams "off with their heads! You are all on a blacklist and will never work in this industry again!"
Dangerous Goods wrote:OG Westjet pilots came here because they were the outcasts of the industry - they couldn't get on at AC or Canadian.
So what you are saying is that they had a reason that worked for their situation and that's ok. They looked at what was available in front of them and chose what they thought was best. Should they have refused and stayed at Time Air or remained unemployed/underemployed or overseas instead?
Dangerous Goods wrote:Their reward wasn't a spot on a mainline carrier list. Their reward was financial gain from options. They took a risk and it paid off, unfortunately, they drove the bar lower for individual gain.
So if an OG westjeter did it, that's ok. If an OG Encorian thinks about it, no 'effin way. Off the list with him. Ya, I'm definitely the hypocritical one here...

Dangerous Goods wrote:So, it kinda sounds like you do want WJ pilots flying swoop planes at our rates. However, were it gets murky is when you say "If we can't though, I understand and support someone's decision to fly there, AND they should still have a spot on the mainline list". Ahhh? No, not at all...
Yes, that's right. Have a little empathy man. I want everyone to be able to choose. NO COMPENSATION PACKAGE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED AT ALL but if it's too low, like Encore was, no one will go and those that do join will naturally go to the bottom of the list. Believe it or not, I too have a line in the sand. I don't know where that is yet since absolutely NOTHING HAS BEEN PRESENTED YET. Encore's WAWCON was terrible and zero pilots took that option.
Dangerous Goods wrote:That's the hard line in the sand, my friend. If you want to fly at swoop under a b scale, then fine. That's your prerogative, and who am I to deter you. Your reward will be jet pic and some overseas opportunity. If you stand strong and refuse such conditions, then your reward is a long and prosperous career on the WJ pilot list. You can't have both dude, and suggesting so is childish and entitled.
You are saying that since I don't like this toy no one else gets to play with it either. We don't live in a black and white world and overseas flying might be one reason to do it. Not commuting might be a reason to do it. All single day turns and no overnights might be a reason. Maybe all of those combined have some "value" to someone that compensates them IFthe hourly rate is lower. Maybe they'll come out with a compensation package that is 20% lower than mainline on an hourly salary and with twice the stock options. Maybe Swoop will pay for the medical/dental on behalf of the pilots. That would go a long way to making up for a few dollars less. Would that be worth it? I don't know because NOTHING HAS BEEN PRESENTED YET.
Dangerous Goods wrote:Here lies the hypocrisy in your arguments. You criticize original WJ pilots for lowering the bar, yet you're ok with that in the form of swoop AND you want to be rewarded with unfettered access to the mainline list. Unbelievable...
I'm not criticizing them. I get it. The risk of accepting a lower wage paid off for them. Handsomely. There was no mainline list at the time. They had no idea if WS would be around in 6 months, 1 year, ... They were rewarded in stock options. There is a risk that this doesn't last beyond it's first winter season. Remember ZIP and TANGO? Wikipedia them if you were still in high school when AC launched them. What is the reward for someone going to swoop? Are we going to offer swoop pilots 'day-one' style stock options? Would that make up for a lower salaryIF THERE IS ONE? It's called a compensation package not a salary package. If we street hire everyone and exclude them from the list, the WAWCON will be as low as Gregg dictates. We will have a bunch of pissed off former Georgian drivers who have nothing to lose. There will be no reward for the risk that they are taking and they will be motivated to undercut you at every step. The only reward that they will see is growth of their airline at the expense of yours. After all, you want nothing to do with them. Having some association helps keep the ball in our court. At least a little.

We don't know ANYTHING about the WAWCON at Swoop. We know four things about the airline.
  • 1. It's launching in Q3 of 2017. No wait, early 2018. No, I mean summer 2018.
    2. It won't go ahead without the approval of the pilot group
    3. No one will be forced to go to the ULCC
    4. It is incremental flying [for now - no one would deny we need a very firm scope clause that excludes the ULCC from being used as a salary comparator] since these are lease returns
That's just about all we know. Oh, I guess we also now know a name, HQ and the executives in charge.

Speaking of the executives - have you actually contacted ALPA to ask that DM gets kicked off of the list? He's already working for them. Last time I looked, he still has position 1374. Did you know that he and several other Encore managers "flowed" up to mainline, started their years at WestJet and then were immediately seconded back to Encore? There was no reason to do this other than to start the clock at Mainline for personal profit. No other pilots have before or since been permitted to do this. Where was your outrage when this happened?

You make it sound like I'd be the first person in the history of aviation to consider risk/reward/total compensation package. I'm not even the first person at this company to do so.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by BE20 Driver »

Dangerous Goods wrote:You guys are too ridiculous to listen to. Like I said - thank god you're the minority.
Also, this is the problem with society as a whole today. The NRA nuts don't listen to the 70% of the population that don't want open-carry, background checks and clip limits. Liberals don't listen to Conservatives and don't get me started on those commy-pinko NDP guys...No one wants to listen to each other and come up with a consensus or a coilition.

Let's de-escalate this and wait until something gets proposed or better yet, a survey and some union meetings.

What I'm trying to say is let's keep as many options open for everyone to choose from. I'm also trying to prevent whipsawing which I believe to be the real elephant in the room. What I'm reading from you is that you are trying to protect the salaries at the top and punish anyone who would consider something other than the current pay.

I'll keep listening to all the viewpoints on this subject and see if we can't find a way to accomplish all of the above (minus punishing people for the choices they make.)
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altiplano
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by altiplano »

What would have happened if Rouge had launched with a separate list? I imagine a lot of whipsawing and a bitter divided workforce.
They couldn't launch with a seperate list.
The flying is scoped and owned by ACPA pilots.
We voted "No" to second tier wawcon and then the government shoved it down our throats.

Make no mistake, there is still a divided work force.
One getting benefits from the other.
Rouge sees improvements in wawcon while the mainline gets diminished.

It's not personal and rouge has worked out great for some that are there, holding positions out of seniority, doing the best flying, getting $30k raise on the last contract...

... but it's fucked mainline 320 and 767 pilots who work way more and earn less than if that flying were still at mainline...

... it's fucked all the AC Pilots who's contract has to be diminished to try to bring rouge closer, including those rouge pilots who will one day want to come back to mainline and will find out it is less than what it was... it didn't get better, it went backwards during the days of record earnings and share prices because we tried to improve rouge.

Don't hate the player, hate the game... best move is to not let the game get out of the box (any further)...

It would be better for most AC pilots if rouge didn't exist...
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DropTanks
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by DropTanks »

Just to add a little color to the Rouge story...

Sky Regional almost became Rouge. Rovinescu had his plan B in place in case he didn't get what he wanted. This took place before the Embraers came to Sky. Sky Regional was tasked with creating another division called "Aerobee". A lot of high up staff at Sky went to work on this hush hush project. They had 2x 737NG on property, an OC, manuals, training program, management etc ready to go overnight if an agreement to start Rouge didn't happen. The day Rouge was announced Aerobee was scrapped, the two planes went back to Europe and the staff came back to Sky Regional. C.R. Was ready to use an outside group and take his chances in court over the Scope. Keep in mind the state of financial affairs at mainline at the time...he would have won. Talk about whipsawing. Would have been a blood bath.

#nowhipsawing
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groundpilot
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by groundpilot »

altiplano wrote:
What would have happened if Rouge had launched with a separate list? I imagine a lot of whipsawing and a bitter divided workforce.
They couldn't launch with a seperate list.
The flying is scoped and owned by ACPA pilots.
We voted "No" to second tier wawcon and then the government shoved it down our throats.

Make no mistake, there is still a divided work force.
One getting benefits from the other.
Rouge sees improvements in wawcon while the mainline gets diminished.

It's not personal and rouge has worked out great for some that are there, holding positions out of seniority, doing the best flying, getting $30k raise on the last contract...

... but it's fucked mainline 320 and 767 pilots who work way more and earn less than if that flying were still at mainline...

... it's fucked all the AC Pilots who's contract has to be diminished to try to bring rouge closer, including those rouge pilots who will one day want to come back to mainline and will find out it is less than what it was... it didn't get better, it went backwards during the days of record earnings and share prices because we tried to improve rouge.

Don't hate the player, hate the game... best move is to not let the game get out of the box (any further)...

It would be better for most AC pilots if rouge didn't exist...
If Rouge wasn't doing the flying it does, it is likely no AC pilot would be flying those routes. The company is only going to do things that make financial sense.

We left the door open for SunWing, Westjet and AT to expand. We finally get our stuff together and compete, with our weapon of Rouge, and yes we are profitable. Record profitable.

It is time to let go of that past...we are moving forward and we will improve conditions as a group but we are on a lengthy contract so we don't exactly have a ton of leverage right now....
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by '97 Tercel »

So if WJ pilots will do the Swoop flying where are they saving money to lower the fares? Adding a few more pax seats and charging for carry-on bags?
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True North
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by True North »

Dangerous Goods,

You could be forgiven for your total ignorance on this subject as you obviously weren't there at the beginning and have never actually, personally spoken to anyone that was. Your arrogance though, you'll have to take ownership of that.

I was there. I know a couple of the principals and had the opportunity to join at the beginning. I didn't because I had just landed my dream job but I invested in the company, have stayed connected and watched the WestJet story with great interest.
Dangerous Goods wrote:My "outcast" remark was probably inappropriate and I apologize - I didn't mean any disrespect by that.
Probably? You also stated they "couldn't get on at Air Canada or Canadian". Utter nonsense. Of the 26 original pilots, the vast majority were western boys predominantly from Alberta. Half of the original group came from Canadian Regional and at least half of those guys had roots in Time Air. They had no interest in working for Air Canada and anyone with half a brain at that time could see that Canadian was already on the ropes and not a viable career option.
I was trying to illustrate that "day oners" didn't come to WJ for a spot on a mainline list, and BE20 using them as a comparison to swoop wasn't appropriate or a good reason to continue lowering the bar. Talk to any day owner and they'll tell you - " we weren't sure this thing was going to work." or "I was overseas and Tim called asking if I wanted to work for an airline that they were starting". These guys came here with little information and a lot of doubt. What they DID NOT come for was a spot on a mainline list. They took a risk and were rewarded financially instead (options). That was their rewared, NOT unfettered access to a mainline pilot list AND options. However, in the process, they accepted work for lower than industry standard. Hence "lowered the bar"...
"Mainline list"? Gibberish. What has that to do with anything? The original pilots went to work for a startup, low-cost, short haul regional airline flying 737s, based on the Southwest model. They had plenty of information and very little doubt. One of the prerequisites for an interview back then was that the candidate had a job. They were not looking for people who were just looking for a job, they were looking for people who bought into the concept. I was, and still am good friends with several of the original group and met many of the others through my friends. Not one of them ever expressed any doubt about the concept. Just the opposite. Obviously no one can predict the future but they were all confident it would work. They also possessed an entrepreneurial spirit and embraced a revolutionary compensation model - also based on the Southwest model - where their personal financial success was directly tied to the success of the company. What a concept! In the process they became the best paid pilots in Canadian aviation history. Ever. I'm having a tough time reconciling that fact with your assertion that they somehow "lowered the bar". In the end, that original group helped lay the foundation for a company that has an international reputation as a first class operation, world class training, an exemplary safety record and now employs some 1500 Canadian pilots with very good wages and working conditions, despite what you and some others would have us believe. You should show a little more respect.

Finally, the original pilots didn't get rich off their options. They got rich by buying into the company before it went public and investing in their future.
I know nothing of history though
That is obvious.
Can't wait for my history lesson, teach! :D
Consider yourself educated.

School is out.
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altiplano
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by altiplano »

If Rouge wasn't doing the flying it does, it is likely no AC pilot would be flying those routes. The company is only going to do things that make financial sense.
Still buying that line, eh?

The difference is in the seat density.

I agree we have to move forward, but you are a fool if you forget the past or think a few bucks saved up front make or break the route.

The value to corporation was dividing the pilots and setting in motion the long term erosion of the entire mainline contract. Now that they have their extra planes and new hires have their pension, it's time move forward and stop giving up anything, and don't forget what we already lost.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by infiniteregulus »

Forgive my ignorance, but why and how did the government force the contract onto the pilots? If all the pilots said no to the creation of Rouge, and some government crony says get back to work, why can't the pilots just remain on strike? How is it forced?
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by True North »

infiniteregulus wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but why and how did the government force the contract onto the pilots? If all the pilots said no to the creation of Rouge, and some government crony says get back to work, why can't the pilots just remain on strike? How is it forced?
Seriously? :shock:
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by altiplano »

The pilots voted down the TA that created rouge and gutted the pension for new hires among other things and AC management threatened to lock them out - Lisa Raitt and The Harper Government came up with the Protecting Air Services Act in the name of protecting the economy.

The Act specified that under Final Offer arbitration it was winner take all and basically specified that the arbitrator HAD to side with Air Canada... Voila - B-scale in, Pension out, and a host of other real gems... 3 years later AC is making record profits and the Pilots are left holding the bag...
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by infiniteregulus »

Interesting...

"Enforcement

Marginal note:Individuals

34 (1) An individual who contravenes any provision of this Act is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and is liable, for each day or part of a day during which the offence continues, to a fine of

(a) not more than $50,000 if the individual was acting in the capacity of an officer or representative of the employer, the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers or the Air Canada Pilots Association when the offence was committed; or

(b) not more than $1,000 in any other case."

I never knew you could be fined for the government for exercising your right to strike. Seems like us pilots are slaves...
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Coast-dog »

Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by DropTanks »

Coast-dog wrote:Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...
I assume you're talking about cabin crew positions? Flight crew will be Westjet Pilots.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Maritimer »

This has obviously been a very hot topic in the flight deck as of late. While its true that we know absolutely nothing about the WAWCON or anything else for that matter there is one very large constant in all of the conversations I've had. The overwhelmingly majority (that I've spoken to) feel the same way.

1. Swoop flying is to be done by WS pilots at no discounted rate

OR

2. Any pilot who leaves Encore or Mainline to go fly for Swoop should lose their spot and any benefits of being on the one-list. All association with the WJ pilot list is nullified. Further lowering of the bar cannot go unnoticed.

Rip this apart if you wish. THIS IS how, from what I can tell anyway, MOST WJ pilots feel.

Flame away.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by twinpratts »

DropTanks wrote:
Coast-dog wrote:Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...
I assume you're talking about cabin crew positions? Flight crew will be Westjet Pilots.
Hmmm. It doesn't say that anywhere...
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DropTanks
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by DropTanks »

twinpratts wrote:
DropTanks wrote:
Coast-dog wrote:Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...
I assume you're talking about cabin crew positions? Flight crew will be Westjet Pilots.
Hmmm. It doesn't say that anywhere...
Considering both the company and ALPA are stating that the flying will be done by pilots on the WPDL I feel pretty safe saying that. Furthermore the Swoop website hiring page only shows positions other than Pilots.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by seriousflyer »

The problem with removing the pilots from the "one list" because they accept a position at swoop is that it creates "whipsawwing". The pilots at swoop will start to compete with Classic pilots (westjet) pilots for routes, aircraft, contracts, expansion.

The best way, IMO, is to keep everyone on the same list and have opportunities to "bid back" westjet or vice versa. Once Encore is certified, the NC is hoping to have all pilots be able to bid to any type or opportunity. The difference in flying for each operation will be a different contract pay scale. I understand encore has to be lower hourly rates, but Swoop should be equal to westjet rates. Same type = same pay. One list.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by BE20 Driver »

Whipsawing is the elephant in the room. If it is not addressed right from the beginning, 5-10 years down the road, it will become a much bigger problem than any one particular pay scale.
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