When is AC hiring again?

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AviatPsy03
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by AviatPsy03 »

altiplano wrote:There is an internal reference program.

Pilots can recommend someone every few years or so... while it isn't a certainty, I believe it adds to your 'points' ie. all other things equal it might push you over the top...

A lot of us thought that we could stand up for a better pension for the post-FOS hires and had a good shot at even a DB pension through successive no concession interest arbitrations as was laid out in our 10 year deal... many in the union didn't see it that way and sold the TBP and related concessions hard...

Unfortunately many members took the nearsighted, overpriced improvement, or were gun-shy to arbitration, or generally just didn't have a critical review of what was in front of them and voted for it... so the DB in the future has sailed...TBP/MEPP/CWIPP does look reasonable though and is a gain for new hires - we just over paid for it... time to move on...

It's a good job. Lots of openings plus many retirements to come and varied opportunity to someone joining now.

I am eager and very enthusiastic to see that. What is DB or TBP/MEPP/CWIPP altiplano??
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altiplano
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by altiplano »

DB= Defined Benefit pension
- Defined pension payout for life after retirement based on a formula of years of service and highest average earnings
- the pension Air Canada Pilots had before Lisa Raitt and the Harper Conservatives illegally allowed the corporation to close it in 2012... Pilots hired today don't have that plan.

TBP/MEPP/CWIPP= Target Benefit Plan/Multi Employer Pension Plan/Canada Wide Industrial Pension Plan
- TBP is the type of plan, the specific one we got for our members is CWIPP... and it's a MEPP...
- basically it allows you to save in a registered, pooled plan beyond current ITA limits
- there are ups and downs of the plan vs. DC/RRSP savings some loss of flexibility and control with your money, you pay more due no ITA limit, the payout can vary, if you leave AC you would do better with your money in a well managed portfolio,... but for those that don't want to think about it and come out the the other end of this career with a payout for life... there you go.
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Skyhunter
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by Skyhunter »

altiplano wrote:There is an internal reference program.

Pilots can recommend someone every few years or so... while it isn't a certainty, I believe it adds to your 'points' ie. all other things equal it might push you over the top...

A lot of us thought that we could stand up for a better pension for the post-FOS hires and had a good shot at even a DB pension through successive no concession interest arbitrations as was laid out in our 10 year deal... many in the union didn't see it that way and sold the TBP and related concessions hard...

Unfortunately many members took the nearsighted, overpriced improvement, or were gun-shy to arbitration, or generally just didn't have a critical review of what was in front of them and voted for it... so the DB in the future has sailed...TBP/MEPP/CWIPP does look reasonable though and is a gain for new hires - we just over paid for it... time to move on...

.
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AviatPsy03
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by AviatPsy03 »

altiplano wrote:DB= Defined Benefit pension
- Defined pension payout for life after retirement based on a formula of years of service and highest average earnings
- the pension Air Canada Pilots had before Lisa Raitt and the Harper Conservatives illegally allowed the corporation to close it in 2012... Pilots hired today don't have that plan.

TBP/MEPP/CWIPP= Target Benefit Plan/Multi Employer Pension Plan/Canada Wide Industrial Pension Plan
- TBP is the type of plan, the specific one we got for our members is CWIPP... and it's a MEPP...
- basically it allows you to save in a registered, pooled plan beyond current ITA limits
- there are ups and downs of the plan vs. DC/RRSP savings some loss of flexibility and control with your money, you pay more due no ITA limit, the payout can vary, if you leave AC you would do better with your money in a well managed portfolio,... but for those that don't want to think about it and come out the the other end of this career with a payout for life... there you go.
Thank you for this info Altiplano, very useful! So, all pilots from after 2012 don't have this DB plan? DB would have been certainly great, let say if you would have been captain on a 777, it would have been a considerable amount. I guess I will see the MEPP soon or later in my career but I will definitely take a look on all the posibilities.
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aV1aTOr
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by aV1aTOr »

AviatPsy03 wrote:
altiplano wrote:DB= Defined Benefit pension
- Defined pension payout for life after retirement based on a formula of years of service and highest average earnings
- the pension Air Canada Pilots had before Lisa Raitt and the Harper Conservatives illegally allowed the corporation to close it in 2012... Pilots hired today don't have that plan.

TBP/MEPP/CWIPP= Target Benefit Plan/Multi Employer Pension Plan/Canada Wide Industrial Pension Plan
- TBP is the type of plan, the specific one we got for our members is CWIPP... and it's a MEPP...
- basically it allows you to save in a registered, pooled plan beyond current ITA limits
- there are ups and downs of the plan vs. DC/RRSP savings some loss of flexibility and control with your money, you pay more due no ITA limit, the payout can vary, if you leave AC you would do better with your money in a well managed portfolio,... but for those that don't want to think about it and come out the the other end of this career with a payout for life... there you go.
Thank you for this info Altiplano, very useful! So, all pilots from after 2012 don't have this DB plan? DB would have been certainly great, let say if you would have been captain on a 777, it would have been a considerable amount. I guess I will see the MEPP soon or later in my career but I will definitely take a look on all the posibilities.
To add some important details comparing the DB to the TBP:
Under the DB, once you have completed the years of service required to have an unreduced pension (25 years), the amount of benefit you collect in retirement has nothing to do with your career average earnings, but rather your "best 5" years of service. Example: some one who was a 777 captain from day 1 to retirement at 25 years vs someone who was an RP for 20 years and then held 777 captain for the last 5 years, both would receive identical pensions.
Under the TBP, your benefit collected in retirement is a target based on a number of factors, the but importantly it is calculated based on average career earnings. So the example given above would produce different pensions since pilot #1 earned far more over his/her career. This type of pension has the side effect of encouraging maximum earnings over the entire career. Or interpreted differently, bidding junior positions your whole career.
Another important distinction is that a DB cuts off contributions at a specific YOS (also 25 years I believe?). Meaning a pilot hired young can actually do better in retirement under the TBP since there is no maximum contributions (in percentage of income yes, but not dollar amount or number of years of contributions).
It is far more complicated than anyone can spell out here, but in essence the younger a pilot is hired and the more he/she earns in their career, the difference in benefit between the two pensions is quickly erased. Keep in mind though, more years contributing to a TBP is more you are not getting in pocket during that time.
One final note about the TBP. Many would have you believe that being a Target Benefit Plan, the amount you will receive in benefit is always in limbo and any fluctuations in market return/interest rates/member contribution etc will throw your retirement plans on shaky ground. The fact is the CWIPP has been operating for over 30 years and has only reduced benefit twice (benefits are reduced group specifically; meaning one company's shortfall in contribution affects those members only, not all CWIPP members) and those were for employee groups of less than 20 people. ACPA pilots will be the largest employee group to join CWIPP (over 800 members already) and bring by far the most stability, through amount of money being contributed, and volume of members contributing. And that number will only increase over the decades (as DBers retire and TBPers are hired).
Yes the TBP has inferior qualities to the DB plan. But don't let anyone tell you it's a slightly better DC plan.
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altiplano
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by altiplano »

aV1...

Some good info.

The contributions are capped at 35 years for DB members.

So while you don't pay beyond that, I believe you also don't benefit if those last, noncontributory years are your highest earning... some of the guys that were hired young or bought back pensions (military) run into that...

I think your 777 Captain from day 1 vs. career RP example is a little extreme...

It's also worth noting though that until you retire (DB), if you go on disability, if you die, if you quit, if you're fired, your pension value is a value based on your actual contributions... ie. you get what you put in...

Also remember, that many guys here have stagnated most of their careers throughout the merger, 9/11, SARS, Great Recession, Age 65... of course some guys have been damn lucky... but it's the exception imo...

Current vintage new hires getting seats it took over a decade seniority to get just a couple years ago... career prospects look pretty good... maybe never better...
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AviatPsy03
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by AviatPsy03 »

altiplano wrote:aV1...

Some good info.

The contributions are capped at 35 years for DB members.

So while you don't pay beyond that, I believe you also don't benefit if those last, noncontributory years are your highest earning... some of the guys that were hired young or bought back pensions (military) run into that...

I think your 777 Captain from day 1 vs. career RP example is a little extreme...

It's also worth noting though that until you retire (DB), if you go on disability, if you die, if you quit, if you're fired, your pension value is a value based on your actual contributions... ie. you get what you put in...

Also remember, that many guys here have stagnated most of their careers throughout the merger, 9/11, SARS, Great Recession, Age 65... of course some guys have been damn lucky... but it's the exception imo...

Current vintage new hires getting seats it took over a decade seniority to get just a couple years ago... career prospects look pretty good... maybe never better...
I am religiously reading all of your advice! Thank you for your time, I'll be aware of this subject when it will be time, I hope soon, I am kind of eager to be part of the AC team to be honest. You know what Altiplano I am agree on career prospects, I am a 90's kid and since I started my licenses, I've never seen an hiring process like that. I heard a tons of stories about how hard it was to be hired by a major airline 30 years ago and I feel sorry for all of you who had a hard time getting higher with the majors. On the other side, I am very happy that we have an enormous opportunity to fly bigger airplane with only 900 hours (Jazz for example).

Safe flights to you!
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Jimmy2
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by Jimmy2 »

It was asked above but I'll ask again, does anyone know if/when/how you can get your money out of the new pension if you leave Air Canada after only a couple of years?
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aV1aTOr
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by aV1aTOr »

Thanks for the correction altiplano. I have a more limited understanding of the DB since it was never an option anyways. The extreme rp/777 captain example is unrealistic, but simply to point out the difference between best 5 vs career average earnings.

The CWIPP pension is portable up until age 50, but it is more complicated than just sending an email that you want your money. A more knowledgeable pension expert could provide more details than I can give, but there is limited ability to commute the pension.
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rudder
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Re: When is AC hiring again?

Post by rudder »

THere are Jazz pilots that took over $1 million with them from their jazz DB Plan when they went to AC. 100% convertible to commuted value (with some tax consequences) but not portable to the AC plan(s) as I understand it.
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