Why is flying so expensive?

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by rookiepilot »

Prodriver wrote:Landing and user fees at most CDN airports. They are sucking the life out of aviation. They are continuing to have an orgy with staff, security, fire trucks and continue to drive up the costs of operating these tax payer assets. There is no accountability. Read the link below. Useless Red tape!

http://airlines.iata.org/news/iata-urge ... u-airports
Every provided service should be heavily taxpayer subsidized. As long as it isn't my taxes. LOL.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Posthumane
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 551
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Posthumane »

Prodriver wrote: I guess my plane weights more than yours or you are not going to larger airports. CYEG is 56.00 and I just paid 97.00 for the privilege to land at CYYC last week w/ no PX and a 10.00 nav can fee. 35.00 at springbank, don't shoot the messenger, just trying to answer the question.
Stay out of YYC, YYZ, YEG, YVR, and a maybe one or two other major int'l airports and you're golden. There are several airports around both Calgary and Edmonton that are far cheaper and more GA friendly. $35 landing fee at springbank? You must be flying turbine powered aircraft... not exactly grass roots. Like CpnCrunch, I've almost never paid landing fees flying around Canada. The only instances that come to mind are Winnipeg Intl, and when clearing customs in Lethbridge.
AirFrame wrote: I think we're mostly on the same page. What you may not know is that because there is no "design standard" for amateur-built aircraft, what designers use is FAR Part 23, which is the same standard used for certified aircraft. Most modern, well-designed amateur-builts meet FAR 23, or meet it with minor known exceptions. The difference is that no independent body has gone through every last clause and confirmed conformity with each one, as a certified aircraft would have to.

Some of the more established Amateur-Built vendors (Vans, Glasair, maybe others) have even done structural tests to design limits (and beyond) on sample airframes. You won't typically get that from a new vendor though... They can't afford to destroy one! :)
I'm totally with you. Most of the *good* designers use FAR23, but some don't. It's just something to be aware of when shopping. I like Budd Davisson's PIREPS and articles on the myriad of types he's flown for that reason - he spells out not only performance figures, but little gotchas in various aircraft and how each one differs.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Posthumane on Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." -George Bernard Shaw
NunavutPA-12
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: YCO

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by NunavutPA-12 »

Floats and skis!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Beefitarian
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6499
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:53 am
Location: A couple of meters away from others.

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Beefitarian »

YEAH! ~pounds table with fists~

Why is a hamburger eight bucks in so many places in YYC?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Pardon me, may I fly your light single?
av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 831
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by av8ts »

Maybe it’s like a divorce, because it’s worth it
---------- ADS -----------
 
Lotro
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Lotro »

dcabrown wrote:Solution - PARTNERSHIPS are one of the easiest ways to bring the costs down significantly. I'm not sure why there aren't more partnerships (2-5 people) or flying clubs (6-20 people) around. Maybe there are and I don't know about em?

Consider:
Tie down - same amount regardless of pilots, can be split between people
Insurance - same amount for for 2-5 pilots, can be split
Annual Inspection - basically the same amount ($1600+snags) each year whether you fly 20 or 200 hours

Scheduling - via Google Calendar - free

It's just a matter of meeting the right people to form a group which I'll admit is easier said than done.
I'd really like to see COPA get into this business. They don't need to assume the risk, but it would be amazing if they could lead the way for the setup of flying clubs. COPA chapters are a great beginning to the network, and if a chapter also owned an aircraft and flying club that would make sense.

I honestly think COPA could/should offer a "Flying Club Setup Service" where they come into the club, consult with the members, help select and purchase an aircraft, ink the paperwork required, and generally facilitate the whole process.

It's easy to find people willing to spend money to fly, much harder to convince them to organize their peers and get stuff done.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8017
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by photofly »

Your faith in COPA is ... refreshing.

Personally I'd like to see COPA successfully organize its way out of a paper bag. Then I'd trust it with something like you suggest.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by AirFrame »

They organized their way out of a paper newsletter into a glossy magazine.
They organized their way through a successful AGM this year in Kelowna.
They organized their way through rebranding and redesigning the website.

And those are just the first three that come to mind. I'm not a fan of the new website or logo, but i'm just one member. Others like them.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8017
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by photofly »

AirFrame wrote:They organized their way out of a paper newsletter into a glossy magazine.
They organized their way through a successful AGM this year in Kelowna.
They organized their way through rebranding and redesigning the website.
And yet... on the subject of paper bags, you are silent.

It's funny - there's nominally a COPA chapter at my local airport, but none of the officers of the chapter keep their airplanes at the airport, and none of them ever fly into the airport. It's just weird.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Lotro
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Lotro »

photofly wrote:Your faith in COPA is ... refreshing.

Personally I'd like to see COPA successfully organize its way out of a paper bag. Then I'd trust it with something like you suggest.
I'm not sure I was trying to convey my faith in them. It just seems to me that they would be the appropriate organization to spearhead the creation of a nationwide group of not-for-profit flying clubs allowing members to get flying affordably. They already have an interested audience and a network to reach them. They are supposedly subject matter experts in the area of general aviation (or should be).

I suppose they're busy "protecting our freedom to fly" which doesn't seem to me to matter much since (and this is anecdotal) fewer and fewer people are flying these days due to a variety of reasons. The ones I've faced repeatedly in multiple markets are: access to rental aircraft and price.

Relying FTUs to keep people flying seems like a poor strategy to me. They're busy training people to follow checklists and program FMS systems at the airlines.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8017
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by photofly »

Lotro wrote: Relying FTUs to keep people flying seems like a poor strategy to me. They're busy training people to follow checklists and program FMS systems at the airlines.
All of them? Are you sure?

I can't speak for other provinces, but in Ontario only a small minority of FTUs have bent the knee to the Private Career Colleges mafia, and they are the only ones allowed to teach CPL and instructor rating courses. Most teach only PPL courses. There are not many FMS systems involved in the PPL syllabus.

Checklists: even something simple like a 150 has them, and it's mandatory in law (CAR602.60(4), $3000 fine for failure) to do the checks that are listed in them. So it would be remiss for an FTU *not* to train people to follow them.

I'd put a lot more faith in FTUs than in COPA. And I will say that the people I see at FTUs are lot younger and more diverse than the COPA members I've ever met. Are they representative of COPA overall? I hope to goodness not. COPA is a great idea, whose execution falls woefully short of what it could be. If COPA is all we have for the future, we are all doomed.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Cat Driver »

If COPA had any credibility they would lobby TC to allow anyone to offer flight training without having to be sodomized financially through the FTU-OC fiasco like the FAA allows.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by AirFrame »

photofly wrote:And yet... on the subject of paper bags, you are silent.
Well, they gave out plastic bags at the AGM... So maybe they worked their way out of paper and into plastic? ;)
It's funny - there's nominally a COPA chapter at my local airport, but none of the officers of the chapter keep their airplanes at the airport, and none of them ever fly into the airport. It's just weird.
That is weird.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JasonE
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by JasonE »

AirFrame wrote:
It's funny - there's nominally a COPA chapter at my local airport, but none of the officers of the chapter keep their airplanes at the airport, and none of them ever fly into the airport. It's just weird.
That is weird.
Seemingly common. My local COPA flight is very inactive.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8017
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by photofly »

We used to have a very active GA group at my airport. A friend of mine ran a free mailing list, made up of everyone based here and everyone who flew in semi-regularly. It ran to about 40 members. No fees or qualifications, and no job titles for anyone either. It was active too. Lots of chat and info about latest developments at the airport. Of which there were - and are still - lots.

Then COPA got s sniff of money, and new members, and came along and “encouraged” the formation of a COPA flight. Suddenly there were to be fees, constitutions, offices, office holders, bank accounts, annual meetings and best of all - a really snazzy logo. Wow, what a logo! We had the troops, we were told, now all we needed was formality: captains, and commodores, and squadron leaders - and we’d have real influence. We could rule the world! And if a smart logo and job titles were all that are needed, ruling the world is what we’d still be doing.

My friend, who wasn’t seduced by these slick promises, didn’t want anything to do with it. Whereas we previously had a group anyone could join, and they did - now it was exclusive. You were in or out, and the only way define who was in was to define who was out. Join COPA, or don’t be part of the group. (We needed the fees, you see. Once you have a bank account you must absolutely have fees to put in them.) My friend predicted that the group would wither and die within the year. And that’s pretty much how it turned out. The first and only entry on the Flight blog is titled “Hello, world”, dated March 2012.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:We used to have a very active GA group at my airport. A friend of mine ran a free mailing list, made up of everyone based here and everyone who flew in semi-regularly. It ran to about 40 members. No fees or qualifications, and no job titles for anyone either. It was active too. Lots of chat and info about latest developments at the airport. Of which there were - and are still - lots.

Then COPA got s sniff of money, and new members, and came along and “encouraged” the formation of a COPA flight. Suddenly there were to be fees, constitutions, offices, office holders, bank accounts, annual meetings and best of all - a really snazzy logo. Wow, what a logo! We had the troops, we were told, now all we needed was formality: captains, and commodores, and squadron leaders - and we’d have real influence. We could rule the world! And if a smart logo and job titles were all that are needed, ruling the world is what we’d still be doing.

My friend, who wasn’t seduced by these slick promises, didn’t want anything to do with it. Whereas we previously had a group anyone could join, and they did - now it was exclusive. You were in or out, and the only way define who was in was to define who was out. Join COPA, or don’t be part of the group. (We needed the fees, you see. Once you have a bank account you must absolutely have fees to put in them.) My friend predicted that the group would wither and die within the year. And that’s pretty much how it turned out. The first and only entry on the Flight blog is titled “Hello, world”, dated March 2012.
Stories like this are why it's extremely annoying when someone comes on and says someone "should" start a flying club, someone "should" do this, or "should" do that, to make MY flying easier / cheaper / more convenient.

How nice for those contributing nothing, but want someone else to do all the work.

Why not come on a forum like this, say,, "I'll start up a flying club, invest dozens or hundreds of hours, loads of energy, maybe some money", and I'll create some excitement. "I'll do it".

Nope. And yeah, we are all busy.

Try volunteering. On anything. It's pretty rewarding.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Cat Driver »

Lately I have been thinking of getting my medical renewed and getting a Cub and going back to teaching fun flying.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
User avatar
JasonE
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by JasonE »

Cat Driver wrote:Lately I have been thinking of getting my medical renewed and getting a Cub and going back to teaching fun flying.
I'd fly out and pay you for some advanced level training. This is something that is difficult to come by.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright
dcabrown
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:12 am

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by dcabrown »

For anyone interested, we have a few, 1/4 shares available for sale in our Piper Warrior, based at YTZ. I formed this partnership 7 years ago after I got my first bill for 1.1hours of Dual which ended up being something like $300 after HST.

Instead, $12,500 per share gets you fractional ownership and then our fixed costs are evenly split 4 ways. We run the engine lean at 55% power and get our fuel consumption down to 6.6GPH/94ktas when doing training - so barely $50/hour.

I had barely 4 hours of dual when I started - no issues with insurance, no issues finding an instructor and our partnership agreement basically covers off everything about the plane's operation.

I know there are a handful of partnerships around but I have no idea why there aren't more. When we first got the aircraft and were all doing training - we did a combined 225 hours in a year and never had any issues with scheduling. In fact, it was much better with additional people because we'd schedule training flights sequentially so that the instructor was still around and the plane was still warm (bonus in the winter for not even having to spend 15 mins taking off the covers)

The ad is posted in the classified area for more details.

Yes, yes, i know the Leafs STILL won't make the playoffs :rolleyes:
Lotro wrote:
dcabrown wrote:Solution - PARTNERSHIPS are one of the easiest ways to bring the costs down significantly. I'm not sure why there aren't more partnerships (2-5 people) or flying clubs (6-20 people) around. Maybe there are and I don't know about em?

Consider:
Tie down - same amount regardless of pilots, can be split between people
Insurance - same amount for for 2-5 pilots, can be split
Annual Inspection - basically the same amount ($1600+snags) each year whether you fly 20 or 200 hours

Scheduling - via Google Calendar - free

It's just a matter of meeting the right people to form a group which I'll admit is easier said than done.
I'd really like to see COPA get into this business. They don't need to assume the risk, but it would be amazing if they could lead the way for the setup of flying clubs. COPA chapters are a great beginning to the network, and if a chapter also owned an aircraft and flying club that would make sense.

I honestly think COPA could/should offer a "Flying Club Setup Service" where they come into the club, consult with the members, help select and purchase an aircraft, ink the paperwork required, and generally facilitate the whole process.

It's easy to find people willing to spend money to fly, much harder to convince them to organize their peers and get stuff done.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8017
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by photofly »

Are you taking pre-PPL partners yet?
I had barely 4 hours of dual when I started
Where did you do your spin training?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”