Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

[pacman007]

You all forget that Swoop is a ULCC. There is only so much market for a ULCC in canada so we won't see 787s 67s flying at Swoop. If the Westjet pilots fly it fine, if they don't thats also fine. there is no way Swoop will turn into another major airline in canada. The problem is it will be nearly impossible for a pilot to go to mainline westjet anymore. If you are at Mainline you will have a good stable job with a good contract. Unfortunately Encore and Swoop pilots will be paying for it!

[Transonic]

Whipsawing is the elephant in the room. If it is not addressed right from the beginning, 5-10 years down the road, it will become a much bigger problem than any one particular pay scale.

Whipsawing is front and centre. The consequences have clearly been shown through the past three decades. Everyone is aware of the threat.

In order to have a whipsaw, you need to have a competing group on the other side. The moment a WestJet/Encore pilot skips the cue to jump to the other side for personal gain, is the first movement of the saw.

[Transonic]

Unfortunately Encore and Swoop pilots will be paying for it!

That's a strange comment. If Swoop does exist with lower WAWCON it will always be a drag on mainline wages. WS pilots will be forever reminded of Swoop pilots doing more work for less at every negotiation.

But for now, all of this is hypothetical.

With respect to WS growth, the fact is 10 787s show up in the next 4.5 years. After which, it is highly likely the 10 remaining options will be exercised in the 3 years following 2021. If your optimistic, wide body growth will continue after that. There are still good opportunities at WS for many.

So sit back, relax and enjoy your spot in the cue.

[DropTanks]

Unfortunately Encore and Swoop pilots will be paying for it!

That's a strange comment. If Swoop does exist with lower WAWCON it will always be a drag on mainline wages. WS pilots will be forever reminded of Swoop pilots doing more work for less at every negotiation.

But for now, all of this is hypothetical.

With respect to WS growth, the fact is 10 787s show up in the next 4.5 years. After which, it is highly likely the 10 remaining options will be exercised in the 3 years following 2021. If your optimistic, wide body growth will continue after that. There are still good opportunities at WS for many.

So sit back, relax and enjoy your spot in the cue.

The 10 options are a foregone conclusion. The number being thrown around is more like 40 WB would help us capture market share similar to our domestic market share. Take that as you will but I see the WB growth as a huge potential for WJ and it's pilots.

[Jimmy2]

All those saying that Swoop pilots are going to be Wesjet pilots working for the same pay and working conditions they had at mainline need to do some honest soul searching and ask themselves if they truly believe that. They are already an LCC so their wages are very umm... competitive, but when you add that U to the LCC there must be further cuts to costs. To think those cuts are going to come from everywhere but your department is quite naive (or narcissistic).

Let's not forget Jazz pilots operated 757's a few years back.

[rudder]

All those saying that Swoop pilots are going to be Wesjet pilots working for the same pay and working conditions they had at mainline need to do some honest soul searching and ask themselves if they truly believe that. They are already an LCC so their wages are very umm... competitive, but when you add that U to the LCC there must be further cuts to costs. To think those cuts are going to come from everywhere but your department is quite naive (or narcissistic).

Let's not forget Jazz pilots operated 757's a few years back.

Rouge and Swoop are managements attempt to use labour discounts in pay, productivity, and benefits to compete in segments of the market where some operators are able to cover costs at a lower price point. If pilot labour costs were equal, then the price point would rise and the consumer would not be able to shop where labour concessions are imperative to offer the cheapest ticket. It is up to the pilots to figure out how to coordinate bargaining goals and stop being used as the essential ingredient to irrational competition.

As for Jazz flying 757's, there are lots of threads from years past that properly explain that gross Jazz pilot costs allocated to that operation were equal to or greater than the pilot costs at Skyservice. There was no discount. If people want to have a debate that the Skyservice pilots were operating at a discount to the market, that is a different story.

[Transonic]

All those saying that Swoop pilots are going to be Wesjet pilots working for the same pay and working conditions they had at mainline need to do some honest soul searching and ask themselves if they truly believe that.

True. I suppose my statements were from the frame of mind that Swoop would pay Flair style wages of 95/45 for Capt/FO rate, 18-20 days max and a separate pilot group. Thus making the 737-800 the new Navajo for timebuilders to go overseas.

The ideal solution would be an agreement that keeps the normal flow of progression at WS. How so? Capped wage steps, no YOS within Swoop, max 16 days, no bidding restrictions and scoped only to the 10 aircraft that were *supposed* to leave the fleet in 2018. Essentially you get to a left seat 1-2 years earlier in the normal order at the same working conditions. The compromise would be wages however for the individual it would be a gain.

The above would be the intersection of mutual benefit. More left seat positions while providing a product that protects the bottom end from new entrants. The key is normal progression of seniority. That is something Rouge did not start out with.

[KAG]

Jimmy2, none of the pilots I'm flying with have any interest in doing the same job for less pay, Faster upgrade or no. Sure, it might save on employee costs, but whats it cost to train a 737 pilot? 30K? If I were management i'd be seriously concerned about setting up a Air Canada training ground cause any pilot willing to leave the WJ master list has no loyalty and thus will leave at the first opportunity to fly for big red, China (insert name here) ETC. This is all assuming that there is infact a lower wage scale, and we don't allow them to come back. Lot of assumptions here. It may turn out to be WJ pilots working the flights for WJ wages. We'll see. Im not getting too worked up yet.

[BE20 Driver]

Whipsawing is the elephant in the room. If it is not addressed right from the beginning, 5-10 years down the road, it will become a much bigger problem than any one particular pay scale.

Whipsawing is front and centre. The consequences have clearly been shown through the past three decades. Everyone is aware of the threat.

In order to have a whipsaw, you need to have a competing group on the other side. The moment a WestJet/Encore pilot skips the cue to jump to the other side for personal gain, is the first movement of the saw.

You're focusing on me as the embodiment of the enemy. I'll admit that I poked the bear earlier, but even if you succeed in preventing any current westjetters from going to swoop there will still be pilots on the street willing to do it. You'll still have a B-Scale even if I'm not part of it. Even if I don't go, there will be someone who finds the Terms and Conditions acceptable. Someone from Flair who doesn't see any future; someone at Cathay looking to come back to Canada who just wants something to get by until AC calls. The pilots are out there. Kicking people off of our list will only piss them off to the point of creating a desire to F*$k you back. It's an eye-for-an-eye mentality.

I think Transconic is onto something. The mutual benefit solution would be to give LOA's to people willing to go to Swoop (maybe like Encore, no one will take the offer and go). Have a strong scope agreement to protect the mainline flying (fleet size, expansion plans, route structure etc.) Have a further agreement that stipulates Swoop is never used to drag down the mainline wages (never used as a comparator, YOS at Swoop don't count to mainline while YOS at Encore does...)

Rouge happened regardless of how the AC pilots felt. Swoop will happen too, with or without our support. Might as well steer into the skid. The goal of preventing whipsawing can be accomplished through some creative agreements and acknowledging that everyone has a right to exist and choose their own path.

[express315]

I sure hope the bank can give me a loan for my 737 type rating...maybe use my house as collateral. I'd really like to fly the 737 and don't mind pink.

How low are we going to go? I have never seen hiring like this in my career, and yet we have what I thought was a respectable company trying to drive down wawcon even further. I sure hope this isn't going to be a carrot dangled in front of the Encore group to stop them from joining ALPA

I agree with you to some extent, but remember, flying as an F/O on a Dash or Q at any of the "regionals" doesn't pay that great anymore. Anyone with half a brain would pick Jazz, Encore or Porter over Swoop, but as long as Flair can get 737 pilots, this Swoop will be able to get them too. Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.

Flair is loosing pilots at the same rate as they hire them. Wonder when the pool is going to dry out.

[Mach1]

I'll admit that I poked the bear earlier

You did... and it resulted in a full on containment failure on my part so I gave myself a time out.

I don't have all the answers because I don't have all the facts. I think it will be difficult to fill those seats but you are right, someone might do it. I find the idea of patients lacking.... it's a long career and sometimes you have to play the long game to get better rewards. I'm not advocating lower pay for anyone, which is why I hope no one applies to work there until the wages are fair market value and not discounted. Which means... some people may have to say no to advancing into the left seat for 703 wages until the time is right and that means patients. The old axiom "The toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow" comes to mind.

Personally, I believe we all need more money and I will never say any different. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out and if ALPA can have a positive effect on the outcome. If they can't, then it is incumbent upon everyone who looks at this job to think very carefully about not only the short term but the long term career implications this company represents.

[SnotRocket]

I sure hope the bank can give me a loan for my 737 type rating...maybe use my house as collateral. I'd really like to fly the 737 and don't mind pink.

How low are we going to go? I have never seen hiring like this in my career, and yet we have what I thought was a respectable company trying to drive down wawcon even further. I sure hope this isn't going to be a carrot dangled in front of the Encore group to stop them from joining ALPA

I agree with you to some extent, but remember, flying as an F/O on a Dash or Q at any of the "regionals" doesn't pay that great anymore. Anyone with half a brain would pick Jazz, Encore or Porter over Swoop, but as long as Flair can get 737 pilots, this Swoop will be able to get them too. Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.

Flair is loosing pilots at the same rate as they hire them. Wonder when the pool is going to dry out.

They may be able to find pilots, but quality? Wonder what the failure rate is like or are they pushing people through?

[Rowdy]

I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

There is a global pilot shortage and the airlines are looking at this thinking they can lower the bar even further. Why? we eat our young here...

[infiniteregulus]

It ends when we say it ends. No pilots, no flying, no money. (Until AI takes over...)

[North Shore]

I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

There is a global pilot shortage and the airlines are looking at this thinking they can lower the bar even further. Why? we eat our young here...

Rowdy, you can't have it both ways, man. If the sandbox is slavery, and China is garbage, then if your management says 20% haircut next year, or hit the road, then what are you going to do?

[Rowdy]

I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

There is a global pilot shortage and the airlines are looking at this thinking they can lower the bar even further. Why? we eat our young here...

Rowdy, you can't have it both ways, man. If the sandbox is slavery, and China is garbage, then if your management says 20% haircut next year, or hit the road, then what are you going to do?

I get what you're saying, and maybe I was misconstrued...

My point is, the two major carriers in this country are not stepping stones and should not, ever, be treated by anyone as such. There are still incredible fiscal opportunities outside of the country.

There IS a global shortage, and if we as the group start treating it the way it should, perhaps we could see both wages here and working conditions over there improve!

[complexintentions]

My point is, the two major carriers in this country are not stepping stones and should not, ever, be treated by anyone as such. There are still incredible fiscal opportunities outside of the country.

Sorry, but your statements seem to contradict. If the incredible fiscal opportunities are outside the country, why wouldn't the domestic carriers be used as stepping stones to get to them? A global shortage doesn't necessarily mean a shortage in Canada - especially if people stay to avoid the "slavery and garbage", right?

I can't follow who you're placing the blame on - the pilots or the companies? Just seems like economics to me. If they can offer less pay and still crew their flights, it'll happen. And they WILL get the crew.

[Rowdy]

complex, It is a two sided issue. We as a pilot group are so incredibly distracted and self absorbed, that there is zero unity. The operations that employ airline pilots know this and take advantage of it and even try to further divide the groups. When, as a group of so called professionals will we actually start acting like it? Case in point, the mindless bickering in the other thread about a bloody go around.

I would view EK and the like as stepping stones. Get your money and get out. You don't build a retirement home in dubai. They won't let you.

[infiniteregulus]

Then let's take ACTION! Paralysis by analysis - nobody seems to be doing anything about it. How can we actually fix this? It's great discussing problems, but we need solutions!

[dumbbell daddy]

I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

Awesome dude. Sounds like you have first hand info? How many 737/777 contracts have you completed in China? Was it after you did 5 years in DXB on the triple?